Discussion: Energy/Mana, Cooldowns, or something else?

[MattHunX]

Mech's no, but they might still have the same design of converting damage into heat and using ability "modules", maybe a biological equivalent, or they might still use suits of *some* sort. While visually very different I would really like it if the enemy AI used the same rules and setup parameters as the players do.

Yes! YES! That x1000!

Some should definitely have enough AI, move-sets, gear and abilities to be as close of an equivalent as they could possibly be to a player character. Move like us. Fight like us.

 

[MattHunX]

Yes! YES! That x1000!

Some should definitely have enough AI, move-sets, gear and abilities to be as close of an equivalent as they could possibly be to a player character. Move like us. Fight like us.

I've said essentially the same thing, elsewhere and in relation to e.g.: that Chosen Guardian at the OCT. It should go both ways. If it has a floaty-shooty ability that makes him steadily hover in one place while shooting, I want one, too.

However, the Tsihu, in particular, given that it is a friggin' alien-race, should have some exclusive offensive and defensive abilities and moves, also.

 

[OziriusSVK]

Ok, so I add a little different idea and very interesting at least for me xD
I draw up this idea also with possible balancing of crafting (Power/Mass/CPU). All numbers are only as example, no data behind it

Fundamental Idea:

Energy produced by "Power Core" and excess is stored in "Core accumulator":

-"Power Core" produce constant energy output 100 Energy/s (Energy per second).
-" Core Accumulator (Optional component)" can store energy like battery and it is recharged mainly when you are not using energy output from power core, with capacity of 1 200 Energy.
-Balancing: You can create power core with more energy output, but capacity of accumulator will be smaller and vice-versa, or stats of Power core and accumulator depends on crafted version.
​

Energy produced from "Power Core" is consumed by charging "Abilities":

-Every ability works like "Accumulator" and require certain energy to use, e.g. :

Ability can store 1600 Energy and require 800 energy to use (every use reduce accumulated energy in this ability by 800 energy), so if this ability accumulate 800 energy or more you can use it one time. When this ability reach 1600 energy, no longer drain energy from "Power Core" and you can use this ability two times in a row.​

-Balancing: Bigger ability accumulator naturally require more mass (you will be heavier). Energy required for one use of ability depends of crafted version of ability.

​

Energy output from "Power Core" can be distributed differently to every ability e.g. (with 4 abilities):

-Option 1. Equally to every ability: So if all 4 abilities are not fully charged (that they can store energy), they charge with rate of 25 Energy/s (so it takes 32 seconds to charge 800 energy=1 use). BUT if only 3 abilities are charging, they are now charging with rate of 33,3 Energy/s, ... and if only 1 ability is not fully charged, it is charging with rate of 100 Energy/s (8 sec to charge 800 energy=1 use)
-Option 2. Prioritize only one (or more) ability: If prioritized ability is not fully charged, all power output is used only for this ability and other abilities are not charging until this ability is full.
-Option 3. Set your own rules of charging e.g.: charge always only one ability to full capacity or until it reach energy for one use, then all equally. Charge one ability with constant 30 Energy/s and other abilities equally, ....
-Balancing: For balance purpose some abilities should have maximum charging rate (maximum Energy/s to charge), that can also depends on quality of material used in crafting. Or charging smaller number of abilities will have reduced efficiency (with the smallest efficiency with charging only 1 ability)​

Charging and using "Core Accumulator (Optional component)":

-Use 1: Core Accumulator is emergency measure, that can by used by any ability which doesnt have enough energy in its own energy accumulator, or if you just want to use some ability just one more time (even when it is fully charged xD ). Energy in "Core accumulator" and energy in ability can be combined to reach 1 use (or more).
-Use 2 (Optional): Use big amount of energy in "Core Accumulator" to Overclock "Power Core" so it will produce more Energy/s, duration and efficiency of overclock can be adjusted (longer overclock with smaller efficiency will be more effective than big efficiency and short duration ) and depends on used energy from "Core accumulator".
Charging: Core Accumulator is charging when all other abilities are fully charged , or you can distribute energy to its with same rules as for abilities.
-Balancing: Maximum charging rate should be limited and defined by quality of materials in crafting. Also energy transfer to ability use have reduce efficiency so if normal use of ability cost 800 energy, using energy from "Core Accumulator" for this ability will cost you more e.g. 1200 energy.
​

Advanced functionality:

Abilities with toggle on/off (High demand of Energy), example "Stealth ability":

-This ability have full capacity at 2000 Energy, to toggle on you need only 200 Energy but to remain active it will need 200 Energy/s, that can be drained from this ability´s accumulator, "Core Accumulator" and directly from "Power core". So I can sustain Stealth from its own energy reserve (1800 energy=9 seconds duration of stealth), or for example I can use combined sources: 100 Energy/s from Power core and 100 Energy/s from ability accumulator (duration of 18 seconds). Some energy must always come from ability´s own energy accumulator.
-This ability will be automatically turned off when ability´s own energy reserve is depleted, (Optional: or when you fire your weapon/use ability).
-"Advanced Stealth": Firing your weapon and using abilities no longer drop stealth, but to compensate these effects, for every use of ability and for firing every bullet your energy in Stealth ability´s energy accumulator is reduced by 50 Energy (number is only as example).
​

Aura/Buff like abilities with toggle on/off (Small demand of Energy), example "Deflection shield":

-This ability have full capacity at 200 Energy, to toggle on you need only 200 Energy but it will drain Energy directly from your "Power core" constantly at rate of 20 Energy/s until you turn it off.
-Reduce dmg received by 20% (Some small effects with similar Aura/Buff like abilities)
​

Specialization in deployment abilities via "Core Accumulator" (specialized class like engineer in FF):

-This specialization requires big "Core Accumulator" (with cca 3600 Energy), because duration/Health of deployables will be affected by additional Energy transfer to them from "Core Accumulator".
-Example of abilities that deploy stationary deployables:

1. Stationary gun Turret: Full capacity at 1800 Energy, to deploy 1 Turret you use 600 energy. Base duration of this Turret is 20 sec and can be increased (when deploying) by using aditional energy from "Core Accumulator" at rate 100 Energy = 5 aditional seconds up to total of 60 seconds duration.
2. Stationary Rocket Turret: Full capacity at 900 Energy, to deploy 1 Turret you use 900 energy. Base duration of this Turret is 30 sec and can be increased (when deploying) by using aditional energy from "Core Accumulator" at rate 100 Energy = 5 aditional seconds up to total of 60 seconds duration.
3. Stationary Front Shield: Full capacity at 1000 Energy, to deploy 1 Shield you use 500 Energy. Base health points is 25% of your health points and can be increased (when deploying) by using aditional energy from "Core Accumulator" at rate 100 Energy= aditional health equal of 5% of your Maximum health points up to 100% of your total health points.​

-I dont know what you prefer more, fixed duration or slowly decaying of deployables​

Aditional info:

-Some could ask if " Power core" should also generate energy for movement/Sprint or Jumpjets/Jetpack or weapon. I dont think it is good idea to have one Power source for all. If we go with different power source for abilities, weapons, movement it is by my opinion much better for balancing. Also it make sense to have more than one power source in Omniframe, if one fails other can still work (for example: If EMP disable power source for abilities you can still move and shoot, if you other power sources are immune/not affected by EMP xD )
-Also if you want even more, we could redirect power from one power source to another, for example: transfer all energy from movement (you cannot move) to weapons system so you will get better rate of fire, or to abilities system so you can use abilities more often
​

Feel free to discuss and feel free to use these ideas (if any xD ) for Ember development.

 

[OziriusSVK]

Aero: "Boss!?...Boss!!? You're...alive! And your frame...it's...undamaged? How?"

You: "Whaddaya mean? Why would it be damaged? It's just water."

Aero: "Um...nevermind."

The Best post of the Day xD

 

[EvilKitten]

Aditional info:

-Some could ask if " Power core" should also generate energy for movement/Sprint or Jumpjets/Jetpack or weapon. I dont think it is good idea to have one Power source for all. If we go with different power source for abilities, weapons, movement it is by my opinion much better for balancing. Also it make sense to have more than one power source in Omniframe, if one fails other can still work (for example: If EMP disable power source for abilities you can still move and shoot, if you other power sources are immune/not affected to EMP xD )​

​

First, EMP shielding is pretty standard these days in military/combat applications I think. EMP itself shouldn't be able to disable a futuristic mech's power source. However there could be futuristic single target energy drains that would slow down but not stop power driven cooldowns for those abilities that have them. I feel that such an effect as an AoE would be too OP. Anyways...

I think it is important to force players to strike a balance between all of the aspects of their frame. Having one power source for all components of the frame is kinda key. If your power source provides 1.6 kilojoules of energy and your jumpjets require a constant 400 joules then you are left with 1.2 KJ, factor in the other components of your frame and you might have say 200 KJ to devote to ability recharging. There should always be a base recharge rate no matter how much power excess you have (you can't go below 0 or the frame can't be finalized in the garage) but excess energy should speed up the process on a logarithmic scale (diminishing returns). The key is, the more stuff you pack into your frame the less often you can access your abilities, this is a balancing issue that the player will need to address.

 

[MattHunX]

Well, god damn it. We have another gear-part, in the form of the power core and its optional Accumulator, around which a whole forest of ability or skill-trees and mods could be planted.

I like the idea of using different cores and their energy to prioritize and/or buff certain abilities and their recharge-rate by draining more of one's reserves.

We have waaaay too many ideas. And for just one aspect of an aspect of an aspect of the game.

 

[MattHunX]

The Best post of the Day xD

Could be an in-game reference to FF.

I'm sure the devs will put in some stuff to that effect.

 

[OziriusSVK]

First, EMP shielding is pretty standard these days in military/combat applications I think. EMP itself shouldn't be able to disable a futuristic mech's power source. However there could be futuristic single target energy drains that would slow down but not stop power driven cooldowns for those abilities that have them. I feel that such an effect as an AoE would be too OP. Anyways...

Yes we can go also with this , or with any idea in this thread, seem to be we have really lots of ideas

 

[MattHunX]

Yes we can go also with this , or with any idea in this thread, seem to be we have really lots of ideas

What about those Ophanim buggers that could disable our jets and energy with that continuous arc of electricity they fired at us. Like a debilitating tether. And in Ember, it could also affect cooldowns, too. One would need to take out enemies like that quickly to be able to regain mobility and use of abilities.

 

[EvilKitten]

@MattHunX Any power drain would have to be some sort of leech effect and it would need to be in constant interaction with the target (hence the single target nature). This could either be an alt fire module which would require player interaction (weapon has to be maintained in roughly the right direction) or an ability that would auto "aim" for the player (but lacking the skill component should not have as dramatic an effect). It would be interesting if the leech added the amount of siphoned energy to the attackers excess energy pool and thus reduced *their* cooldowns.

The other thing about this would be if actively using jumpjets utilized the same excess power that is also used for abilities. If the more excess power you have the stronger your jumpjets became it would be another interesting layer in how the player designs their mech, and then on top of that force the player to choose between jumpjetting and faster cooldowns. It would provide both a strategic (mech setup) and tactical (jumpjet vs ability) aspect to energy usage. If this were the case then having someone leech excess power from your frame (via exposed power nodes etc) could potentially ground the player as well as lower their cooldowns if they don't have enough power to spare.

 

[TankHunter678]

First, EMP shielding is pretty standard these days in military/combat applications I think. EMP itself shouldn't be able to disable a futuristic mech's power source. However there could be futuristic single target energy drains that would slow down but not stop power driven cooldowns for those abilities that have them. I feel that such an effect as an AoE would be too OP. Anyways...

EMP shielding, against an EMP wave that actually gets through the frame of the suit, is a breaker system to prevent overload. Basically everything shuts down and power connectors "pop" so that there is no current so nothing gets damaged.

Otherwise EMP shielding is just an object inside an enclosed metal box so that the current/wave goes alongside the outside and does not touch the stuff inside.

However due to the omniframe's complete and utter reliance on an energy shield to protect the pilot from hostile environment/atmosphere, (physically open cockpit, no self contained atmosphere should the shield go down) EMP should be avoided for this game. As any EMP that would get through the frame of the omniframe would mean exposure to the extreme heat and toxic atmosphere of the volcanic planet.

Unless environmental factors are just ignored in a sci fi fantasy way.

 

[EvilKitten]

A simple Faraday Cage designed into the inner surface of the Mec will protect against virtually *ALL* Electromagnetic interference. Adding robust diodes to any exposed ports eliminates any EM exposure there as well. Frankly with only using modern technology alone you can pretty much EMP proof any electronic item, any future tech is simply gravy. My statement here however will not protect against energy draining as exposed ports are designed to siphon off energy into the frame modules.

EDIT: Here you can buy some of THIS to put on your Mech!

 

[Omnires]

Also remember EMPs are made naturally by things like lightning and solar flares. EMPs are even made by some bombs when they go off. Electromagnetism is one of the basic laws of the universe like gravity, strong nuclear force, and weak nuclear force. Remember even things like light, radio waves, and gamma rays are all electromagnetic.

Edit: If I remember right some energy weapons like railguns, coilguns, and plasma weapons (where the plasma is use as a beam or orb) all make EMPs are a natural part of how they work and fire rounds.

Meaning that games like FireFall some frames should have way more powerful than they were if the secondary effects of their weapons as added. The lightning weapons the engineer class should have made all other non-shielded weapons gear either shut down or overload. The same for all the plasma weapons.

 

[MattHunX]

@MattHunX Any power drain would have to be some sort of leech effect and it would need to be in constant interaction with the target (hence the single target nature). This could either be an alt fire module which would require player interaction (weapon has to be maintained in roughly the right direction) or an ability that would auto "aim" for the player (but lacking the skill component should not have as dramatic an effect). It would be interesting if the leech added the amount of siphoned energy to the attackers excess energy pool and thus reduced *their* cooldowns.

The other thing about this would be if actively using jumpjets utilized the same excess power that is also used for abilities. If the more excess power you have the stronger your jumpjets became it would be another interesting layer in how the player designs their mech, and then on top of that force the player to choose between jumpjetting and faster cooldowns. It would provide both a strategic (mech setup) and tactical (jumpjet vs ability) aspect to energy usage. If this were the case then having someone leech excess power from your frame (via exposed power nodes etc) could potentially ground the player as well as lower their cooldowns if they don't have enough power to spare.

One would really have to decide what to tune their mech's power-reserves for. Faster ability usage or more mobility via more efficient boosters. Love that! Strike a balance between the two, also, if one wishes.

 

[MattHunX]

EMP shielding, against an EMP wave that actually gets through the frame of the suit, is a breaker system to prevent overload. Basically everything shuts down and power connectors "pop" so that there is no current so nothing gets damaged.

Otherwise EMP shielding is just an object inside an enclosed metal box so that the current/wave goes alongside the outside and does not touch the stuff inside.

However due to the omniframe's complete and utter reliance on an energy shield to protect the pilot from hostile environment/atmosphere, (physically open cockpit, no self contained atmosphere should the shield go down) EMP should be avoided for this game. As any EMP that would get through the frame of the omniframe would mean exposure to the extreme heat and toxic atmosphere of the volcanic planet.

Unless environmental factors are just ignored in a sci fi fantasy way.

A simple Faraday Cage designed into the inner surface of the Mec will protect against virtually *ALL* Electromagnetic interference. Adding robust diodes to any exposed ports eliminates any EM exposure there as well. Frankly with only using modern technology alone you can pretty much EMP proof any electronic item, any future tech is simply gravy. My statement here however will not protect against energy draining as exposed ports are designed to siphon off energy into the frame modules.

EDIT: Here you can buy some of THIS to put on your Mech!

Must those ports be exposed, though?

 

[MattHunX]

Also remember EMPs are made naturally by things like lightning and solar flares. EMPs are even made by some bombs when they go off. Electromagnetism is one of the basic laws of the universe like gravity, strong nuclear force, and weak nuclear force. Remember even things like light, radio waves, and gamma rays are all electromagnetic.

Edit: If I remember right some energy weapons like railguns, coilguns, and plasma weapons (where the plasma is use as a beam or orb) all make EMPs are a natural part of how they work and fire rounds.

Meaning that games like FireFall some frames should have way more powerful than they were if the secondary effects of their weapons as added. The lightning weapons the engineer class should have made all other non-shielded weapons gear either shut down or overload. The same for all the plasma weapons.

And the Tsihu come out of...lightning. Oh, snap.

 

[EvilKitten]

Must those ports be exposed, though?

I do not mean exposed as in to the elements, For a modular design the mech will require a host of power nodes scattered all over the frame for different module hookups, these nodes while capable of being protected against EMP wouldn't be able to be so easily protected against siphoning off energy.

 

[MattHunX]

I do not mean exposed as in to the elements, For a modular design the mech will require a host of power nodes scattered all over the frame for different module hookups, these nodes while capable of being protected against EMP wouldn't be able to be so easily protected against siphoning off energy.

Or maybe some energy weapons, on the enemy's side, wouldn't necessarily siphon it, but could simply cause them to leak it and "bleed" into the immediate environment, randomly lashing lightning bolts causing damage to others nearby and the process would hamper the affected frame's movement and use of energy. Maybe another energy-based weapon could set the whole thing on fire, or cause an even bigger electrical storm that would seriously mess up the Reaper pilot's day and everyone else's who'd be near.

 

[Omnires]

Or maybe some energy weapons, on the enemy's side, wouldn't necessarily siphon it, but could simply cause them to leak it and "bleed" into the immediate environment, randomly lashing lightning bolts causing damage to others nearby and the process would hamper the affected frame's movement and use of energy. Maybe another energy-based weapon could set the whole thing on fire, or cause an even bigger electrical storm that would seriously mess up the Reaper pilot's day and everyone else's who'd be near.

Funny thing about that is some objects become magnetized when they become energized. So going by what the frames and other things in the world are made of, hitting them with something like a lightning gun would also turn them into magnets.

Given how even the aliens wear things like metal chains on them, if turn the chains into magnets you could slow them because they'll stick to things like in the environment and they'll be a bit easier to hit because a super powerful magnet might pull you rounds towards them even if you'll aim was off. lol

I don't think would need things like alt-fire on most weapons as long as you add in things like secondary effects of weapons. Then you can make the alt-fire things like changing from semi-auto to full auto.

 

[TankHunter678]

Funny thing about that is some objects become magnetized when they become energized. So going by what the frames and other things in the world are made of, hitting them with something like a lightning gun would also turn them into magnets.

Given how even the aliens wear things like metal chains on them, if turn the chains into magnets you could slow them because they'll stick to things like in the environment and they'll be a bit easier to hit because a super powerful magnet might pull you rounds towards them even if you'll aim was off. lol

I don't think would need things like alt-fire on most weapons as long as you add in things like secondary effects of weapons. Then you can make the alt-fire things like changing from semi-auto to full auto.

It would be best, imo, to make things like firemode changing completely separate from alt-fire buttons. Alt-fires should be something we can slot in on our modification of the weapon, allowing us to take a smaller arsenal and make it more rounded for the various situations we might face.

Much like how in Borderlands you could carry 4 weapons, one slot for each counter defense element, while also allowing you to bring 4 different types of guns to cover everything from short range, mid range, long range, and multi-targets. Only we can take that and compress it down into 2 weapons.