Can we please get a longsword?

[MattHunX]

Finished a pic for a RWBY OC Weapon, that could be adapted to a gun-sword for EM-8ER.

http://matthunx.deviantart.com/art/RWBY-OC-Weapon-Cyber-Hive-643174040

The size and dimensions were designed with a human wielder in mind, so for an omni-frame it could be larger, the blades could be energy-variant, for less weight, more speed,

The assault-rifle form, from which the blades spring forth, can be ignored, and the sniper rifle-mode could be the default.

 

[Omnires]

Finished a pic for a RWBY OC Weapon, that could be adapted to a gun-sword for EM-8ER.

http://matthunx.deviantart.com/art/RWBY-OC-Weapon-Cyber-Hive-643174040

The size and dimensions were designed with a human wielder in mind, so for an omni-frame it could be larger, the blades could be energy-variant, for less weight, more speed,

The assault-rifle form, from which the blades spring forth, can be ignored, and the sniper rifle-mode could be the default.

Nice I like it.

My RBWY OC has twin one-handed single-edged swords for melee that can be electrified with the push of a button. When the swords are linked togeather they become a two-handed double-edged sword with a gap between the blades, that when electrified turns sword into a railgun able to fire anything effected by magnetic fields between the gap along the blades.

I picked a railgun because it is one of the easist guns to make because it has no moving parts, just two or more parallel rods that can make an electromagnetic field. At first was going have it be a charged particle cannon but I'll need think of a way to add a berrel to the swords.

 

[Daynen]

@Daynen @Omnires The experience I'm drawing my salt from is a character in a guns based MMO with a melee class introduced 2 years after game launch.
This character was 2 or 3 levels lower than mine (20), I had an assault rifle. Fully buffed, high accuracy, I hit him for maybe 10% hp in the time it took for him to nearly teleport to my character, and two seconds later I was standing near a respawn point. I don't call that fun and I want to prevent that from happening in ember.

That sounds like a game where proper mobility was not a fundamental feature of all builds and melee was sloppily tacked on, rather than incorporated in a thought-out way (2 years after launch? If that's not an afterthought, I don't know WHAT is.) If players aren't given a proper defensive foundation including mobility and response time, then yeah, durable one-shot melee dashers become very out of place and very un-fun. It's all about the context and the complete package. When it's something designed to flat-out counter you and make you lose because you didn't build for it, I tend not to enjoy that either.

I have a feeling Ember won't have that exact problem.

 

[NoahDVS]

First thing I thought of:

 

[Omnires]

First thing I thought of:

Really because talking about weapons that do things like change size I was thinking more of things like this.

 

[NoahDVS]

Really because talking about weapons that do things like change size I was thinking more of things like this.

A long sword that can change size without losing strength or effectiveness compared to normal long swords would actually be a good idea since it would be easier to draw.

 

[Caconym]

The problem with physical, non-energy based melee weapons being able to change size or shape is that they lose a lot of durability. It's like one of those cheap plastic rulers with a hinge so they can fit in a pencil case; the joint/mechanism/hinge adds a weak point, and unless you have something to compensate for that (that's where the techno-bs is added usually) then they don't work very well. Something that doesn't rely on mechanical components (e.g plasma blade inside a magnetic field?) would be a lot more reliable, and probably lighter with less maintenance needed.

As for the topic of melee weapons in a gun game - it is all about how the different weapon types are implemented and how they are played. A mix of ranged and melee weapons make a lot of sense from a practical point of view - you can only carry so many bullets after all - but it should be balanced, like was explained above:

That sounds like a game where proper mobility was not a fundamental feature of all builds and melee was sloppily tacked on, rather than incorporated in a thought-out way (2 years after launch? If that's not an afterthought, I don't know WHAT is.) If players aren't given a proper defensive foundation including mobility and response time, then yeah, durable one-shot melee dashers become very out of place and very un-fun. It's all about the context and the complete package. When it's something designed to flat-out counter you and make you lose because you didn't build for it, I tend not to enjoy that either.

I have a feeling Ember won't have that exact problem.

I wouldn't be against having ranged-only and melee-only classes/builds, but they should have their pros and cons and be balanced against each other; they also shouldn't be the only options available. In-betweens offer so many possibilities.

 

[Lawz]

Anyone familure with 'Gunz: the Duel'? It uses a (in my opinion) rather cool mix between guns and swords/daggers.
Not saying combat should be like this but you could get some inspiration from it.

 

[Omnires]

The problem with physical, non-energy based melee weapons being able to change size or shape is that they lose a lot of durability. It's like one of those cheap plastic rulers with a hinge so they can fit in a pencil case; the joint/mechanism/hinge adds a weak point, and unless you have something to compensate for that (that's where the techno-bs is added usually) then they don't work very well. Something that doesn't rely on mechanical components (e.g plasma blade inside a magnetic field?) would be a lot more reliable, and probably lighter with less maintenance needed.

You have some points there, but you don't always need mechanical components to make things change size and shape. One fun example being the types of shape-shifting memory metals that can be bent and twisted all different ways only to back to the size and shape you programmed it to be. As right now in real life, this new types of metals are soft but who knows what can happen in the future as we get better at things like nanotechnology and molecular printing (as a joke I sometimes call things like this a new wave of "alchemy"). So it could be possible to have a weapon that is in the shape of a cube or ball when not in use and when you apply right kind of stimuli it'll change into melee weapon you want. Note that the size and shape may change but the mass stays the same, so it is something to keep in mind when picking a smaller form to short it.

For the people who don't know about shape-shifting memory metals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy

 

[Daynen]

You have some points there, but you don't always need mechanical components to make things change size and shape. One fun example being the types of shape-shifting memory metals that can be bent and twisted all different ways only to back to the size and shape you programmed it to be. As right now in real life, this new types of metals are soft but who knows what can happen in the future as we get better at things like nanotechnology and molecular printing (as a joke I sometimes call things like this a new wave of "alchemy"). So it could be possible to have a weapon that is in the shape of a cube or ball when not in use and when you apply right kind of stimuli it'll change into melee weapon you want. Note that the size and shape may change but the mass stays the same, so it is something to keep in mind when picking a smaller form to short it.

For the people who don't know about shape-shifting memory metals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy

That'd be pretty cool--a little rubbery ball you keep in your pocket that, when squeezed, turns into a sword. Talk about stress relief, amirite??

 

[HumanTrainingBot]

I think a good way to introduce melee combat in Em-8er is to make the mech punch or do a sweeping arm strike (from the chest out to the side) as a "Get out of my face" tool. We get some utility out of it instead of melee being just another source of damage. Once that is in place, other weapons can be implemented at a later time.

From a programming standpoint, making code for melee out of nothing is more difficult than changing a modifier to add a new weapon. Animation has a more difficult job, but, just like programming, it's easier to work with and change what you already have than to start from scratch. As for the actual weapons, look to the community for artistic renderings of weapons and possibly accept fan-submitted .obj files.

 

[Lawz]

Wouldnt it be easier to code, or make it be possible from the start than to introduce later on?

 

[EvilKitten]

That'd be pretty cool--a little rubbery ball you keep in your pocket that, when squeezed, turns into a sword. Talk about stress relief, amirite??

<insert joke about guys, balls, swords and stress relief>

But seriously, I feel that melee should be part of the frame as a slot, not a separate handheld weapon that takes the place of your gun. This is a shooter game right?

EDIT: Something like this that attaches to the backside of the mech's hand which can extend when you want to stab something and contract when not in use...

(yes I know this was quick and dirty...get over it)

 

[HumanTrainingBot]

Wouldn't it be easier to code, or make it be possible from the start than to introduce later on?

A little clarification here. It is always more work to type additional lines of code for anything. That said, it is easier to make code to handle melee combat early in development rather than rewriting chunks of code later on. Adding melee combat later means possibly introducing bugs that are much harder to track down among the 100 to 1000 times more lines of code in a released game compared to a proof-of-concept/mock-up.

Overall, yes, it is better to add code for melee combat early in development. It means a little more work now and a lot less work later.

 

[Lawz]

Thats what I ment, indeed. 'Easier' wasnt the right choice of word.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

The problem with physical, non-energy based melee weapons being able to change size or shape is that they lose a lot of durability. It's like one of those cheap plastic rulers with a hinge so they can fit in a pencil case; the joint/mechanism/hinge adds a weak point, and unless you have something to compensate for that (that's where the techno-bs is added usually) then they don't work very well. Something that doesn't rely on mechanical components (e.g plasma blade inside a magnetic field?) would be a lot more reliable, and probably lighter with less maintenance needed.

The entire suit is actually very light, being composed primarily of aerogel titanium reinforced at a molecular level with an energized integrity field. This make it light enough to glide, but strong enough to break through a brick wall.

USE THAT CRAP INSTEAD.

 

[Caconym]

You have some points there, but you don't always need mechanical components to make things change size and shape. One fun example being the types of shape-shifting memory metals that can be bent and twisted all different ways only to back to the size and shape you programmed it to be. As right now in real life, this new types of metals are soft but who knows what can happen in the future as we get better at things like nanotechnology and molecular printing (as a joke I sometimes call things like this a new wave of "alchemy"). So it could be possible to have a weapon that is in the shape of a cube or ball when not in use and when you apply right kind of stimuli it'll change into melee weapon you want. Note that the size and shape may change but the mass stays the same, so it is something to keep in mind when picking a smaller form to short it.

For the people who don't know about shape-shifting memory metals:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape-memory_alloy

That's true. The only problem with memory alloys is that they have to be deformed physically (so you'd need to "push" them into a collapsed state), and returning to their original shape happens through successive heating and cooling. So to draw/extend your sword, you'd have to first heat it to close to melting point, then wait for it to cool down so that it's not soft enough to flap about uselessly. Then to put it away you'd need to apply enough force to bend the metal into going back to a folded state, and if you can just do that on the field by yourself, then it can't be that strong as a sword. The same problem happens when you make it so that the collapsed state is the base state - you'd need to force the blade into position every time you need to use it, and that'd take a bit of time, and again, the sword itself wouldn't be that strong if you are able to force it into shape yourself.
Shape-memory alloys would also have a hard time retaining a sharp edge, so the best usage for memory alloy weapons would be blunt weapons, and for that you might as well just use a metal stick.

USE THAT CRAP INSTEAD.

Could work, but that still doesn't explain the shape-shifting, just an increased integrity. Could be used as an excuse to allow for the mechanisms inside to be sturdy enough though.

 

[Omnires]

That's true. The only problem with memory alloys is that they have to be deformed physically (so you'd need to "push" them into a collapsed state), and returning to their original shape happens through successive heating and cooling. So to draw/extend your sword, you'd have to first heat it to close to melting point, then wait for it to cool down so that it's not soft enough to flap about uselessly. Then to put it away you'd need to apply enough force to bend the metal into going back to a folded state, and if you can just do that on the field by yourself, then it can't be that strong as a sword. The same problem happens when you make it so that the collapsed state is the base state - you'd need to force the blade into position every time you need to use it, and that'd take a bit of time, and again, the sword itself wouldn't be that strong if you are able to force it into shape yourself.
Shape-memory alloys would also have a hard time retaining a sharp edge, so the best usage for memory alloy weapons would be blunt weapons, and for that you might as well just use a metal stick.

The thing is given that we are fighting inside of mecha with an unknown power source and with jump jets to let us fly for a short time, finding a way to heat the metal is not really a problem. In fact, it might be better to keep the blade hot and soft while you fight at then it could bend warp around the enemy burning them the whole time, or you can stab it into a weak point in sage one and heat it up again for stage two changing the shape again sending out spikes in all directions while still inside the enemy. Remember not all swords are hard to bend, a lot of swords designed for trusting (like foils) need to bend because they used to stab at weak points in armor of moving targets. So think about the think needle-like sword being stabbed to the enemy's body and using the heating element in your arm you heat up the sword again and now the ball of spikes like a sea urchin.

Trust me, real life melee weapons are far more scary than that we posting here. For example, most people would laugh if you said to made sword out of glass because it wound break. Not knowing that you want it to break while you fighting because it increases the odds of the thing your fighting will die. Even if the escape the battle alive that glass will stay in their body making it a slow and painful death. You would think that is a fantasy sword and no one in real life would do that. But in fact it is real. There was a number of weapons in real life ranging from arrow heads to swords where the cutting edges was made out of obsidian (type of volcanic glass that is both hard and sharper than a surgeon's scalpel). Fighting with obsidian blades would often have parts of the weapon break off inside the body of the enemy, so as the enemy moves around the fragments cut them even more, and you never put out all the fragments so even the people who lived will send the rest of their lives in pain as the glass will always cut them when they moves around.

But that would be in idea for things like a one-time use weapon in a game. Use it once the weapon breaks. Even if the enemy is not killed on the first hit they'll slowly bleed to death.

 

[Caconym]

The thing is given that we are fighting inside of mecha with an unknown power source and with jump jets to let us fly for a short time, finding a way to heat the metal is not really a problem. In fact, it might be better to keep the blade hot and soft while you fight at then it could bend warp around the enemy burning them the whole time, or you can stab it into a weak point in sage one and heat it up again for stage two changing the shape again sending out spikes in all directions while still inside the enemy. Remember not all swords are hard to bend, a lot of swords designed for trusting (like foils) need to bend because they used to stab at weak points in armor of moving targets. So think about the think needle-like sword being stabbed to the enemy's body and using the heating element in your arm you heat up the sword again and now the ball of spikes like a sea urchin.

Trust me, real life melee weapons are far more scary than that we posting here. For example, most people would laugh if you said to made sword out of glass because it wound break. Not knowing that you want it to break while you fighting because it increases the odds of the thing your fighting will die. Even if the escape the battle alive that glass will stay in their body making it a slow and painful death. You would think that is a fantasy sword and no one in real life would do that. But in fact it is real. There was a number of weapons in real life ranging from arrow heads to swords where the cutting edges was made out of obsidian (type of volcanic glass that is both hard and sharper than a surgeon's scalpel). Fighting with obsidian blades would often have parts of the weapon break off inside the body of the enemy, so as the enemy moves around the fragments cut them even more, and you never put out all the fragments so even the people who lived will send the rest of their lives in pain as the glass will always cut them when they moves around.

But that would be in idea for things like a one-time use weapon in a game. Use it once the weapon breaks. Even if the enemy is not killed on the first hit they'll slowly bleed to death.

The problem with heating memory-shape materials is that you're basically heating them to a point where they're not just bendy, they're outright soft. It'd be even worse than having a sword made out of gold, and it wouldn't even be *that* warm. You might as well just put an induction coil on a regular blade, that would be much more effective when warming things.
As for the whole glass weapons things, those aren't in use anymore for two main reasons. 1) the Geneva convention is a thing and 2) they're just not practical. One-use throwaway weapons are not cost-effective, are a pain in the ass logistically, and are situational weapons.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

and are situational weapons.

*breaks beer bottle*
BRING IN THE RABBITS!
*hics*