Discussion - The Skin Toggle Button

[Pandagnome]

I speak for others because I'm not alone in my thought process... You have 30k members here, some of which will surely agree with the removal of this button for the very same reason, devaluation.

Also, what's funny is that you're requesting more people to speak up against this to take action, regardless of how badly I'm stomping on your reasons to justify the existence of this button... Because you know more people won't, since you know both forum and DIscord is pretty much dead.

Why don't other people speak for themselves?, i do understand you like to help sure.
That is a statement, i doubt that there is a request against you its not a competition to win whose right but what would benefit the most ?

I am not afraid to speak my mind, and I will continue to do so when I feel money is being tampered with in bad ways, such as devaluation, or P2W.

Feel free to blabber, just be aware that going on about the same topic to force your view point across is equivalent to a dog barking at the Plant. To then expect the plant to speak unless it was those plants with cool shades that dance!

Encrypted Leaf signals

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

I'm not going to retread the same information again.
So if you don't see a response in this specific message, it's because it's already in a previous reply.
Look I get it. You believe you "won" the argument. It's not like people are always going to come to a place where everyone agrees with the outcome or thought processes.
Agree to disagree.


Could you clarify what you are referring to with this?


Honestly the issue of Em-8er's "sexy skins", and whether we should or shouldn't have them, leading to what we should do about it from somebodies perspective, has come up so many times over the years. It would be hard to remember how many times, how many people, or at which point the toggle feature was brought forward as a solution.


Do what you feel is best for you man.
When the rules about how we deal with client side mods go live, we will find out if it clashes with what you end up doing or not.

I was being very specific when I asked how many people, and what arguments it took to have the idea of this button added to the list of things to add, this implies "at the time", not how many times it's been brought up since.

Ronyn Said:
""And to answer the "Who asked for this feature?". No one asked for this specific feature in itself, this feature was brought about as a solution to the various disagreements in the community on what kind of visuals/styles/sexiness level the skins should have. When there are different desires, sometimes the only option is to go hard to one side, sometimes you can look for options to work for more than one preference.""

That sounds exactly like someone just tossed a coin, because what you're indirectly saying here is that you guys didn't have a clear choice, obviously. You made a hard turn, and you chose devaluation of people's time and expenses to designing their looks in a social online game where visual representation is a big part of the MMO industry, as Grummz just said last CC which directly conflicts with the existence of this button.
Literal double standards here...

Either you add this button, disrespect people's time and money, and indirectly make Grummz a liar.
Or you don't add it, and people will treat Em8er as any other game in the past without this button.
You can NOT have this button and still say you value people's visual representations, when they've paid to be visible and viewed as they want.

I'd also argue that you're already disrespecting people's money by covering up people's characters completely while in those frames, this in addition with that button to entirely remove people's customizations on top of already covered-up skins - tells me something F'ed up is going on, and I don't like the smell of that fishy stench!
It sounds like you want to make a big deal, and a big sales point of skins people will never get to see nor display.



Of course, and I shall treat this project as if the button will stay. Meanwhile you'll lose out on my money and my support, so which ever way it goes, I win yes. Maybe it won't be a big loss to you but, if I'm ending my support, I'm ending it for good.
That means no more good impressions to MMOBytes, Asmongold, TheLazyPeon, MMOBomb, and whatever channels I've been in contact with I shall retract my good stance towards Em8er's to a negative one. Because at multiple levels, you want to disable people from displaying what they've paid for.

Wouldn't surprise me if you started selling socks and underwear nobody gets to see, because you know people can't help themselves, why not milk that untapped potential of revenue too.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

Here I was asking a friend how they'd respond to such a button in FFXIV.
The response is the same as mine.

 

[ChAzZ_NuT]

I was being very specific when I asked how many people, and what arguments it took to have the idea of this button added to the list of things to add, this implies "at the time", not how many times it's been brought up since.

Ronyn Said:
""And to answer the "Who asked for this feature?". No one asked for this specific feature in itself, this feature was brought about as a solution to the various disagreements in the community on what kind of visuals/styles/sexiness level the skins should have. When there are different desires, sometimes the only option is to go hard to one side, sometimes you can look for options to work for more than one preference.""

That sounds exactly like someone just tossed a coin, because what you're indirectly saying here is that you guys didn't have a clear choice, obviously. You made a hard turn, and you chose devaluation of people's time and expenses to designing their looks in a social online game where visual representation is a big part of the MMO industry, as Grummz just said last CC which directly conflicts with the existence of this button.
Literal double standards here...

Either you add this button, disrespect people's time and money, and indirectly make Grummz a liar.
Or you don't add it, and people will treat Em8er as any other game in the past without this button.
You can NOT have this button and still say you value people's visual representations, when they've paid to be visible and viewed as they want.

I'd also argue that you're already disrespecting people's money by covering up people's characters completely while in those frames, this in addition with that button to entirely remove people's customizations on top of already covered-up skins - tells me something F'ed up is going on, and I don't like the smell of that fishy stench!
It sounds like you want to make a big deal, and a big sales point of skins people will never get to see nor display.



Of course, and I shall treat this project as if the button will stay. Meanwhile you'll lose out on my money and my support, so which ever way it goes, I win yes. Maybe it won't be a big loss to you but, if I'm ending my support, I'm ending it for good.
That means no more good impressions to MMOBytes, Asmongold, TheLazyPeon, MMOBomb, and whatever channels I've been in contact with I shall retract my good stance towards Em8er's to a negative one. Because at multiple levels, you want to disable people from displaying what they've paid for.

Wouldn't surprise me if you started selling socks and underwear nobody gets to see, because you know people can't help themselves, why not milk that untapped potential of revenue too.

- "The devaluation of people's time and money"
- "Disrespect people's money"
There are obviously different views on this, this is yours. Can you at least respect the fact that there are other opinions than your own? Which have been stated.

- "Indirectly make Grummz a liar"
Just because your opinion is not a reality, does not make Grummz a liar even indirectly. Be careful with your words.

 

[ChAzZ_NuT]

Here I was asking a friend how they'd respond to such a button in FFXIV.
The response is the same as mine.

Okay? So who is your friend? xD
This is not FFXIV, and that is an opinion of many varying ones.

 

[Mahdi]

Punk….please man. Just

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

Okay? So who is your friend? xD
This is not FFXIV, and that is an opinion of many varying ones.

Who my friends are is non of your biz, I'm not exposing them to this madness of a community.

The fact is, that you guys have NOTHING. Non of you can tell me a single reason for the existence of this button other than "some people might, some people may not"... Meanwhile I have given you guys MULTIPLE FUCKING REASONS why it should not exist, even the creator of the so called "Savior of MMOs" Ashes of Creation has said that such a button is ONLY ever there to increase performance, when the engine calls for it.

Hiding your skins is becoming a Feature Creep.
I also spoke to Giga about this yesterday and he's been calling it "skin muting". And I think that's a perfect word for what's going on here.

Skin Muting...

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

Why don't other people speak for themselves?, i do understand you like to help sure.
That is a statement, i doubt that there is a request against you its not a competition to win whose right but what would benefit the most ?



Feel free to blabber, just be aware that going on about the same topic to force your view point across is equivalent to a dog barking at the Plant. To then expect the plant to speak unless it was those plants with cool shades that dance!
View attachment 5505
Encrypted Leaf signals

Because ...
1. Could be that they're not interested in the dramas of early production.
2. Lots of people have gotten themselves banned for speaking up against designs and ideas. I for one was banned from League of Maidens for speaking up against their mobile-looking main menu. With complete disregard to my earlier efforts defending them against the claims of background mining.
3. They're probably busy playing games, working, and taking care of their families.

Why do you think the 30k people here aren't chatting right now?

Also, yeah, it's finally about time one of my forum posts actually stays ON TOPIC for a change.

 

[ChAzZ_NuT]

Who my friends are is non of your biz, I'm not exposing them to this madness of a community.

The fact is, that you guys have NOTHING. Non of you can tell me a single reason for the existence of this button other than "some people might, some people may not"... Meanwhile I have given you guys MULTIPLE FUCKING REASONS why it should not exist, even the creator of the so called "Savior of MMOs" Ashes of Creation has said that such a button is ONLY ever there to increase performance, when the engine calls for it.

Hiding your skins is becoming a Feature Creep.
I also spoke to Giga about this yesterday and he's been calling it "skin muting". And I think that's a perfect word for what's going on here.

Skin Muting...

That’s not true, there are opinions on both sides. You’re just over reacting, because you’re not getting your way. One of your more childish traits. And say hi to Giga for me.

Also don’t throw around words like disrespect when you’re disrespectful to other people, it’s hypocritical.

What is the difference between “multiple reasons” and “multiple fucking reasons”, would like some clarification from you on that one.

“Who my friends are is non of your biz, I'm not exposing them to this madness of a community.”

Why’re you quoting your anonymous friend? I don’t understand what you’re trying to do lmao.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

Ronyn, I expect a full report from Grummz to re-address the weight and and moral standards regarding this button.
Becuase today, you not only have the people that previously spoke up against this button... You have me, a friend, Steven Sharif and his community from which Grummz has drawn inspiration from, that speaks up against the idea of how Em8er portrays this button.

If Grummz doesn't know any better, maybe he should ask Steven himself why he values people's expenses...

I expect a full re-evaluation of this button's existence next CC. Hopefully you have forwarded him this discussion in due time.

 

[Ronyn]

@punkbuzter#6186
I meant what now? You expect a what now? WOW! lol.
OK Hmmmmm.

Let's try it from simpler angle.
Here are some actual perspectives. paraphrased from things that real life people have expressed on over the years.

Person A says: I like the skin toggles. They make me feel like I can choose what I have to look at, therefore I feel more comfortable playing the game and paying for skins, because I can do my own thing. look how I want to, without having to see stuff I don't like/want or feel is appropriate for my household. This is a good idea I have never seen before. It brings value to my experience.

Person B says: I do not like the skin toggles. They make me feel uncomfortable paying for skins, because I do not like the idea that other people can decide to not see what I made. For me, it is important that other people cannot block out my personal expression. This is a bad new idea that is not needed. It takes value away from my experience.

------------------------------------

So then, punkbuster, I have a few questions for you. Please answer them directly and succinctly-
Is your argument that
1: Person A does not exist/is made up.
2: There are way more person B's than person A's out there, we just haven't heard from.
3: Person B is objectively "correct" and so person A's viewpoint is simply wrong and therefore irrelevant.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

@punkbuzter#6186
I meant what now? You expect a what now? WOW! lol.
OK Hmmmmm.

Let's try it from simpler angle.
Here are some actual perspectives. paraphrased from things that real life people have expressed on over the years.

Person A says: I like the skin toggles. They make me feel like I can choose what I have to look at, therefore I feel more comfortable playing the game and paying for skins, because I can do my own thing. look how I want to, without having to see stuff I don't like/want or feel is appropriate for my household. This is a good idea I have never seen before. It brings value to my experience.

Person B says: I do not like the skin toggles. They make me feel uncomfortable paying for skins, because I do not like the idea that other people can decide to not see what I made. For me, it is important that other people cannot block out my personal expression. This is a bad new idea that is not needed. It takes value away from my experience.

------------------------------------

So then, punkbuster, I have a few questions for you. Please answer them directly and succinctly-
Is your argument that
1: Person A does not exist/is made up.
2: There are way more person B's than person A's out there, we just haven't heard from.
3: Person B is objectively "correct" and so person A's viewpoint is simply wrong and therefore irrelevant.

1. They do exist... But it's obvious that person A don't care about their projection to others.
2. Absolutely not. I'd say it's more or less an equal amount. Most people don't care, they just want to play.
3. Yes. Such has been the way since the dawn of gaming, yet people have played these games anyway.
Isn't that strange?

Fear not. I have decided to quit Em8er for good once Grummz speaks up about this matter during next CC. I'll delete myself out of here because it is obvious that my values directly collides with Crixa's interests.
As I said earlier, I have lived without all the new MMOs for a decade and I can continue to do so. Thought Em8er was the one to bring me back, but it is clear to me now that it is not. So you guys go ahead and give players the power to mute people's skins as much as you want, keep covering up the characters with more enclosed frames. I wish this project good luck, and hopefully not another Zingo disturbing your piece.

 

[Kassatsu]

I support the filter, despite the fact I will never use it. Unless it's purely to post a screenshot of someone in the default skin out of spite. Which I will absolutely do if the reaction to it is going to be this good.

The opinion of a developer from another game on a system that is similar only in function, but not implementation or reasoning and that is in that game purely for performance reasons has nothing to do with why the filter in this game is even being considered.

You'll generally always be able to block users. It's one of the most basic, critical tools any community has to moderate itself before demanding the creators take action. There is rarely any indication this has happened unless you attempt to DM the user that's blocked you (or you're on the cesspool that is Twitter).
Assuming the 'block' function in this game will work like it does in PSO2 (which can hide some customization), or VRChat (which effectively erases the person from existence, they simply disappear from your client):
Is blocking someone "skin muting"?
Is blocking someone "censorship"?
Is blocking someone "devaluing their time and money"?

Your logic dictates the answer to all of these can only be "yes". Should each player block others that use skins they don't want to see individually as they show up, thus repeating the entire argument over the skin filter until you're seriously advocating for the complete removal of something as basic as a block function?

 

[ChAzZ_NuT]

@punkbuzter#6186
I meant what now? You expect a what now? WOW! lol.
OK Hmmmmm.

Let's try it from simpler angle.
Here are some actual perspectives. paraphrased from things that real life people have expressed on over the years.

Person A says: I like the skin toggles. They make me feel like I can choose what I have to look at, therefore I feel more comfortable playing the game and paying for skins, because I can do my own thing. look how I want to, without having to see stuff I don't like/want or feel is appropriate for my household. This is a good idea I have never seen before. It brings value to my experience.

Person B says: I do not like the skin toggles. They make me feel uncomfortable paying for skins, because I do not like the idea that other people can decide to not see what I made. For me, it is important that other people cannot block out my personal expression. This is a bad new idea that is not needed. It takes value away from my experience.

------------------------------------

So then, punkbuster, I have a few questions for you. Please answer them directly and succinctly-
Is your argument that
1: Person A does not exist/is made up.
2: There are way more person B's than person A's out there, we just haven't heard from.
3: Person B is objectively "correct" and so person A's viewpoint is simply wrong and therefore irrelevant.

Thanks for that summary, made things a lot more clear.

 

[ChAzZ_NuT]

1. They do exist... But it's obvious that person A don't care about their projection to others.
2. Absolutely not. I'd say it's more or less an equal amount. Most people don't care, they just want to play.
3. Yes. Such has been the way since the dawn of gaming, yet people have played these games anyway.
Isn't that strange?

Fear not. I have decided to quit Em8er for good once Grummz speaks up about this matter during next CC. I'll delete myself out of here because it is obvious that my values directly collides with Crixa's interests.
As I said earlier, I have lived without all the new MMOs for a decade and I can continue to do so. Thought Em8er was the one to bring me back, but it is clear to me now that it is not. So you guys go ahead and give players the power to mute people's skins as much as you want, keep covering up the characters with more enclosed frames. I wish this project good luck, and hopefully not another Zingo disturbing your piece.

You're quitting over a skin-filter?

 

[Pandagnome]

Because ...
1. Could be that they're not interested in the dramas of early production.
2. Lots of people have gotten themselves banned for speaking up against designs and ideas. I for one was banned from League of Maidens for speaking up against their mobile-looking main menu. With complete disregard to my earlier efforts defending them against the claims of background mining.
3. They're probably busy playing games, working, and taking care of their families.

Why do you think the 30k people here aren't chatting right now?

Also, yeah, it's finally about time one of my forum posts actually stays ON TOPIC for a change.

- Could be that drama does get tiring for some.
- I think that example is not really the same as Em8er ?
- Could be and could be working on the side too?

- Could be that not many have an issue with this button ?
- Could be there are some imposters and alts?
- Could be that they don't like the forums and just registering for the skin?

Fear not. I have decided to quit Em8er for good once Grummz speaks up about this matter during next CC. I'll delete myself out of here because it is obvious that my values directly collides with Crixa's interests.
As I said earlier, I have lived without all the new MMOs for a decade and I can continue to do so. Thought Em8er was the one to bring me back, but it is clear to me now that it is not. So you guys go ahead and give players the power to mute people's skins as much as you want, keep covering up the characters with more enclosed frames. I wish this project good luck, and hopefully not another Zingo disturbing your piece.

You make some good points on other topics and with this topic i am not so sure.
If you really want to let others see your style you could stream this for those who like to see and those who want to see in game won't use the filter.

I wanted to have something similar to super mario kart within Em8er but nope its not likely going to happen even if i do my best impression of mario and tell them that i am going to leave... but there is cool motorbikes so i am curious to see that.

To be honest the only issue i see is that if we do not have the option we are disregarding a portion of players. Choice to filter or not it is not forced upon and the player decide if they want to.

Think about it i could see your reason if this was force upon but it isn't.

 

[Ronyn]

1. They do exist... But it's obvious that person A don't care about their projection to others.

Ok so there we have it. They do exist. That was my point all along.

But then you say they don't care about their projection on others, ok. Interesting.
Earlier in this thread, didn't you say something like "if people don't like the skins in the game they can just not play"?, and "if parents don't want their kids to play a game they should just not let them play"

So why is "if people don't like the toggle aspect they can just not play" any different?

2. Absolutely not. I'd say it's more or less an equal amount. Most people don't care, they just want to play.

Ok.

BUT to be fair, speaking from a purely mathematical/statistics context: we don't have any reliable metrics for gamers as a whole on an issue like this because it hasn't been brought up to them. Speculation is not data. We can only infer what it would be based on how other personal toggle features have done, and even that only takes us so far.

In reality, it's only the portion of the EM-8er fanbase who noticed, and then only the few who have spoken up about it so far. Out of that sample group who have spoken up, most are fine with it or even for it. Very few have made any statement against it. Again, speculation about what people might say if they did speak is not data. We can't do anything with that.

3. Yes. Such has been the way since the dawn of gaming, yet people have played these games anyway.
Isn't that strange?

Think about what you just said.
You could make that same blanket argument against any new feature, but by itself it holds no value.
Every feature (mechanic and genre) that is common now, was once brand new and never before seen.
For every new feature it's the same story.
The industry survived without it for a while, sometimes years, sometimes decades, and then it got created. Someone somewhere did it for the first time, then it was no longer new.

If you want to stop the creation of a new feature, of any kind, what you have to provide is a reason to think that enough people won't like it, that it would limit the games success. BUT by your own argument, you think it's half and half on either side, and that most people won't care much.

1
Fear not. I have decided to quit Em8er for good once Grummz speaks up about this matter during next CC. I'll delete myself out of here because it is obvious that my values directly collides with Crixa's interests.
As I said earlier, I have lived without all the new MMOs for a decade and I can continue to do so. Thought Em8er was the one to bring me back, but it is clear to me now that it is not. So you guys go ahead and give players the power to mute people's skins as much as you want, keep covering up the characters with more enclosed frames. I wish this project good luck, and hopefully not another Zingo disturbing your piece.

Do what is best for your own happiness.

 

[ChAzZ_NuT]

Should we have skin-filtering?
My personal reasons for and against;


For;
- Skins may be portrayed as offensive, sexual, immersion-breaking… etc
This statement holds true for many different types of people, whether it is because of religion, age, or the ability to immerse oneself in a game. The value which this feature gives to those people is very heavy, it could very well make the difference between buying/playing the game or not.


Against;
- Skins are clothes, and we don’t just wear clothes to feel good. We also wear clothes, so that others understand how we identify ourselves in the world. So if people start to turn off my skins, they won’t be able to understand or perceive how my character identifies in Em8er.
Clothes have been worn for thousands of years as gender identification, to promote sexual attractiveness, to display status, age, occupation, religion, group membership, and political affiliation, for ceremonial occasions, and for personal expression. But we have to consider the fact that the chances of somebody filtering out your particular skin will likely be very low, unless the skin you are wearing is very out of touch with the central themes of the game.


Conclusion;
- Taking these two very valuable reasons for and against the function, into account. I’d make the personal conclusion that having a comfortable gaming experience IS more valuable than portraying how I identify in the Em8er world to other people. Because the extent which the filter applies, will primarily focus on those absurd skins which drift away from the central themes of the game. And not ALL of the skins.

I have decided not to include “paying-for-skins” as a reason against the function, because this function will not effect ALL of the skins. And so I am not concerned if 0.5% of players have my favourite skin turned off. It does not warrant a valuable reason against the function in my own opinion.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

You're quitting over a skin-filter?

I am quitting because there have been multiple instances where I have disliked a chosen direction, and this skin thing going on here right now is just what overfills my cup of tea.
If this was an isolated thing then I'd maybe have overlooked it, but as things just keep piling up I have now realized that I don't like where this game is going.


You could say this "feature" is not yet written in stone, but that's also another point that I disagree with because I like to know what I invest my money in. If I keep investing in this game with the hopes that this button will be removed, but ends up not, among other things that won't change... Then I have made a complete waste of my money to a game I don't want to be part of. I can waste my money on games I'll actually enjoy like Planetside 2 or Path of Exile, maybe I'll even move my skin-subscription from Em8er to Ashes of Creation even tho I'm against subscription-based games.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

Should we have skin-filtering?
My personal reasons for and against;


For;
- Skins may be portrayed as offensive, sexual, immersion-breaking… etc
This statement holds true for many different types of people, whether it is because of religion, age, or the ability to immerse oneself in a game. The value which this feature gives to those people is very heavy, it could very well make the difference between buying/playing the game or not.


Against;
- Skins are clothes, and we don’t just wear clothes to feel good. We also wear clothes, so that others understand how we identify ourselves in the world. So if people start to turn off my skins, they won’t be able to understand or perceive how my character identifies in Em8er.
Clothes have been worn for thousands of years as gender identification, to promote sexual attractiveness, to display status, age, occupation, religion, group membership, and political affiliation, for ceremonial occasions, and for personal expression. But we have to consider the fact that the chances of somebody filtering out your particular skin will likely be very low, unless the skin you are wearing is very out of touch with the central themes of the game.


Conclusion;
- Taking these two very valuable reasons for and against the function, into account. I’d make the personal conclusion that having a comfortable gaming experience IS more valuable than portraying how I identify in the Em8er world to other people. Because the extent which the filter applies, will primarily focus on those absurd skins which drift away from the central themes of the game. And not ALL of the skins.

I have decided not to include “paying-for-skins” as a reason against the function, because this function will not effect ALL of the skins. And so I am not concerned if 0.5% of players have my favourite skin turned off. It does not warrant a valuable reason against the function in my own opinion.

Everyone's offended by everything these days, not a legit reason.

Sexual, yeah, and sex sells. Grummz knows it, he even made fun of Blizzard and laughed as they censored WoW while he added the Mariegold skin, brawling about how proud Em8er is of their navels.
Em8er is also not age rated, and if my memory serves me right Grummz has said that making Em8er for a specific age group is not in his focus or interest... He wants to make Em8er, and it'll get the rating it gets.

Immersion breaking... That's the only valid point. But at the same time, Crixa is in full control of how immersion breaking they're making their skins as they're the ones deciding to put them in the game. And this has never been a major problem in any other game before, sure, one might be upset that there's police car mounts in a fantasy-game but gamers have always solved that issue by looking the other way.
Not to mention our character's skins will mostly be covered up by battle frames anyway... People finding you on the battlefield for example won't have to worry about your character's skin cuz you're gonna main a Heavy Frame, which is fully enclosed according to current design.

You also forgot to add that people pay for skins for their visual expression with either time or money, possibly both of required to mix-match details earned in game. Someone might've spent 100's of hours grinding a specific piece of cosmetic armor, and getting that piece and finally be able to wear it and display that they're the proud owner of such item... Should not be filtered away.

So why is it that we can't find a middle ground? Instead of focusing on ON vs OFF, we could do what Ashes of Creation does and have a button for AUTO-OFF when performance calls for it, if FPS gets low in crowded areas. Because that'd be a legit reason to turn cosmetics off, because performance should always come first in priority... If this was the function of this button I'd have it checked myself.