Discussion - The Skin Toggle Button

[Ronyn]

I don't mind things like that, if it is something everyone agrees to going in.

Unfortunately the "Everyone agrees to" aspect isn't a viable option.
That is not likely to happen on anything, let alone something like this.

Although what is flagged and why it is flagged is always something that is going to be a focus point for me if I can't understand the logic behind it.

That's the thing. Different people have such different view points on stuff, we aren't always going to understand the logic behind someone else choice.

Offering a variety of toggle options is trying to give as much variance in choice as possible.

 

[Omnires]

YOU choosing not to see me in my awesome custom skin is not censoring ME from seeing myself in my awesome custom skin. When you can change my outfit on my screen we can talk about censorship, until then... You are actually talking about you being able to make me see something.

I see what you are saying, I just don't understand it. I don't get the logic behind it. Let me see if I can put it in another way. ... ... ...

Let's say there is a new nightclub opening soon. You have to pay to get into the club and club even posted examples of what is ok for their dress code. Some like the idea of the promise of such a place and agree to join based on that idea. But than when they go to the club wearing something that the club itself said was ok. Only to find out that you have to also have something that blocks other people form seeing you. Because that is now a mismatch in logic to me. And some people will feel mislead and betrayed by this act because they paid money to look a way and want everyone to see them in that way. Because we paid to get into the club with the promise that is fine to run around and show off this look without a problem. Because I don't understand the logic of promising an idea to people and later saying that some other people don't like the idea so we are going to cater to them. Because if they knew before hand that people would be wearing things like this and they was not ok with it than why join in the first place? And why would the people running the club try to cater to groups of people with opposing ideas for how one should look and just expect the group of people they are not catering to would be ok with that when also paid money to go in? So where did the communication breakdown?

Like I said. If it is something that everyone agrees to going in to it than I'm fine. But if the rules change partway through after some people already spend time and money on the initial idea. Then it is up to them to give a meaningful justification as to why the rules are change and if there is going be any kind of compensation for the people who reject the idea who wish to no longer be apart of the new heading. Otherwise it'll feel like they just wasted money buying into a lie.

Unfortunately the "Everyone agrees to" aspect isn't a viable option.
That is not likely to happen on anything, let alone something like this.

But this is a videogame where people sign up and agree to the terms of service. So all the players in the game had to agree to those terms.

Just like how there are lots of websites that when you enter them or see anything else about them there is a message that pops up stating what kind of stuff is on the site. And if you do not agree with that is on the site than clicking no well close the site. That way no everyone on the site are people had to agree on the fact that this kind of stuff is ok on the site. And videogames do the same thing when we sign up for them.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

Let me go ahead and speak for myself for a minute.
I play lots of games where skins are for sale. I buy a whole lot, I mean a whole lot, of skins.
I do it because I like to see my character to look a certain way. I even swap skins based on my mood or character build. I fill out all tabs on the visuals menu when I can. I am seriously into this.
I like to walk around in MMO's and have people compliment my outfit. Oh yeah, I do.
I am literally the kind of customer that makes games rich for having cool visual options.
Now then, do I care whether other people were to see my character as just the base version of it...
not really. I am happy enough that I look the way I want to when I look at myself.
Is it more fun if other people see it? Yes, as I said the compliments are nice. But is it so dire that I won't buy skins if some percentage of other people can opt to not see it? nope. Cause I still get to look at my character looking the way I want them to. That's just me though. I'm allowed to feel this way.
I understand other folks will feel differently.

TLDR
To recap. I whale for skins. While I enjoy when other people see my custom character, don't care that much if other people don't see it.


YOU choosing not to see me in my awesome custom skin is not censoring ME from seeing myself in my awesome custom skin. When you can change my outfit on my screen we can talk about censorship, until then... You are actually talking about you being able to make me see something.


So then, we are coming to the end of this. Cause if you can't stay on point I'm going to just remove myself from the discussion and let it be whatever it is. lol

Ok how do I put this.
Honestly everything you said is just another version of what you already said, that I already countered. You're still talking around the issue, and adding new layers of fluff.
With the latest post you've added the assumption that we don't have any analytics to support this kind of tool-for-parents feature (for example: how things like blood/sweat toggle effect a games sales), you suggest that offering tools is controlling how parents do their job (when it is LITERALLY THE OPPOSITE of that), you ignore the other reason people may not want to see certain skins (like keeping the visuals lore accurate) and you play the victim like you aren't allowed to say you don't like a feature. Which, again, I acknowledged that not everyone will like it, and that is ok. You are allowed to not like it.

What are you really saying?
This boils down to you want EVERYONE else, to see your character the way you want them to.
You don't want anyone to be able to be able to even play the game, unless they have to see your character the way you made it. Doesn't appear to matter to you what percentage of people would even use the feature, nope. (cause it would likely be pretty small, historically it's the option of stuff like this that has more impact than the use of it) According to you, EVERYONE has to see your character whether they like the lore breaks, the super sexy, or whatever. You paid for those skins, other people seeing the skins brings value to you personally, if those other people feel value comes from games where they have more tools to make their own choices on what they see, you don't care. EVERYONE's gotta see your custom character.

That's fine. You can take that stance. You're allowed to feel that way.
Now YOU have to understand that other folks will feel differently.

Which brings me, once again, to the same old point.
No feature is perfect for every preference.

If you're going to decentralize fashion, and provide players with the power to remove other player's design choices, then there's no point in buying fashion because I can do it for free client-side. Whatever textures I change in my client won't be visible to anyone else but me, it won't affect gameplay or performance, or anyone else's for that matter... Just my personal experience - just as you guys want it with that button.
If I'm not the one injecting new textures into the client, someone else will, because that's the nature of the internet.

Question is, are you ready to fight against the modding community? Because if you decide to make player design redundant with this button, people will be more interested in injected fashion rather than the ones provided officially BECAUSE, it doesn't matter what official fashion you waste your money on when others can just null your piece of art with a button anyway.

If I inject my own fashion it gives me the exact same result as your button, with the only difference that I didn't have to waste my money. Even better actually, because I could download and/or share my own and thousands of other player's fashion designs locally, which is more than Crixa will ever dish out on their own.

So, either you get rid of the idea that this button should've ever existed, potentially even avoiding this kind of community all together...
Or, you keep the button and deal with the problems you create. Waste your resources into defending a button instead of making developments to the game. I'm sure the community would approve knowing their money spent is going to such trivial matters instead of fixing bugs for example...

 

[Sy]

- Game has bunny ears
- Player base that doesn't like bunny ears doesn't play
- Game has less players

Replace bunny ears with goofy hats, bikinis, clown shoes, etc. Some people don't want to see "nonsense" all, or just some, of the time.

This functionality was a straightforward pitch. Specific components of specific skins can have a default.

This is also a great idea for parents as well as for platforms, distributors or countries that have specific limitations for appearance.

I want more players to play with, so I want this feature.

Furthermore, this feature also removes barriers from the developers and artists. They can now create skins which are crazy or racy because they know players can just opt out. They can make glowing glittery bunny ears that leave trails because it's hilarious and also know they won't drive away gritty military mecha-players with the lunacy because that playerbase can sigh and mute it. Maybe, just maybe, a game with such functionality can also bring those people over to the silly side sometimes. I'll be using that mode and turning it off on holidays to participate in people being silly.

Personally I still want to see a canon-only second skin slot, so a player can choose what they look like to others with that mode on.

 

[Ronyn]

I see what you are saying, I just don't understand it. ....

Oh ok so by "everyone agrees" you just mean that people should be made aware of it up front, so they know what they are signing up for, and then they are effectively agreeing to it by signing in.
In that case we should be good. This toggle aspect was revealed years ago. It's mentioned in the F.A.Q., and we will make certain it's clear for people when they sign up.

That said, it could be argued that we need to make sure it's more well known to people when they go to buy skins. That is something I can take a closer look at.

If you're going to decentralize fashion, and provide players with the power to remove other player's design choices, then there's no point in buying fashion because I can do it for free client-side.....

Do not confuse "No point for you" with " no point for anyone else"

Ok. So your argument is that, if even a some small percentage of the player base uses the option to not see certain skins, this has "Decentralized fashion".
At what percentage of people using this toggle does that "decentralization of fashion" take effect? 1 percent? 5 percent? 10 percent?

If 90 percent of people aren't using the toggle, is fashion still decentralized? cause that's still a whole lot of people who would still see it. Unless, again, you want to keep insisting that EVERYONE has to be forced to see your custom character.

Question is, are you ready to fight against the modding community?

We can't actually stop certain stuff that modders will do client side.
The only question we have to ask is whether we are providing enough value to enough people to buy skins to make them effective money makers to keep the game running. Considering how many people are fine or even happy with this toggle feature so far, we have no reason to think that'll be a problem.

Or, you keep the button and deal with the problems you create. Waste your resources into defending a button instead of making developments to the game. I'm sure the community would approve knowing their money spent is going to such trivial matters instead of fixing bugs for example...

How do you define what is Trivial?
When putting in a feature, devs have to compare the workload it takes to put in, with the potential sales/earnings it will create. Based on previous trends in these kinds of choice based options, it is more likely to be a benefit to the games overall success than a hinderance.

 

[Pandagnome]

I don't mind things like that, if it is something everyone agrees to going in. Although what is flagged and why it is flagged is always something that is going to be a focus point for me if I can't understand the logic behind it.

@Ronyn mentioned "That's the thing. Different people have such different view points on stuff, we aren't always going to understand the logic behind someone else choice.

Offering a variety of toggle options is trying to give as much variance in choice as possible."

This i can agree with i'd like to expand on some possible reason why e.g.

- Disliking the particular look of someone e.g. Wears frying pan slippers
- Finding the look offensive e.g. someone mocking them by exaggerating their look or stereotyping etc
- Inappropriate depending on culture/religion e.g. showing too much cleavage to skin exposure with some linking this as more perverted even sexualising than expressing.
- Parental / Guardian guided e.g. those younger may not be mature enough to understand certain looks and be easily influenced.
- Previous experience e.g. player who had a bad past in games and prefers to play and see thing in a
more light hearted way.
- Represented as it was meant to be e.g. player keeps the experience as close to the lore as possible to immerse into the Em8er world.
- Partially sighted / Colour blind E.g. may alter colour or even to default which may benefit the player to distinguish the avatar more easier.
- Performance issues e.g. Default option could have less details and extras compared to the amount of customization of the player(s) which could help.

Etc etc

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

Oh ok so by "everyone agrees" you just mean that people should be made aware of it up front, so they know what they are signing up for, and then they are effectively agreeing to it by signing in.
In that case we should be good. This toggle aspect was revealed years ago. It's mentioned in the F.A.Q., and we will make certain it's clear for people when they sign up.

That said, it could be argued that we need to make sure it's more well known to people when they go to buy skins. That is something I can take a closer look at.


Do not confuse "No point for you" with " no point for anyone else"

Ok. So your argument is that, if even a some small percentage of the player base uses the option to not see certain skins, this has "Decentralized fashion".
At what percentage of people using this toggle does that "decentralization of fashion" take effect? 1 percent? 5 percent? 10 percent?

If 90 percent of people aren't using the toggle, is fashion still decentralized? cause that's still a whole lot of people who would still see it. Unless, again, you want to keep insisting that EVERYONE has to be forced to see your custom character.


We can't actually stop certain stuff that modders will do client side.
The only question we have to ask is whether we are providing enough value to enough people to buy skins to make them effective money makers to keep the game running. Considering how many people are fine or even happy with this toggle feature so far, we have no reason to think that'll be a problem.


How do you define what is Trivial?
When putting in a feature, devs have to compare the workload it takes to put in, with the potential sales/earnings it will create. Based on previous trends in these kinds of choice based options, it is more likely to be a benefit to the games overall success than a hinderance.

Yes, decentralization happens when you offer the feature to anyone, it's not a matter of how many or how many percent...
Is there a button to change the appearance of a mountain? I'd guess not, so everyone sees the mountain the say way, the same color the same shape the same size, that's a centralized visual everyone will see equally. It may degrade in quality if settings are low but it's still the same. In this instance the only difference between the mountain and the character skin is that we pay (extra) for the skin. So why is it that you want to tamper with the visuals of the shit that we pay (extra) for, but not the stuff we don't, like the mountain? I'd like to say it smells fishy, but instead if smells of rotten eggs. It's bad, real bad!

Yeah, and right now you have a fraction of players compared to what's to come, not to mention how optimistic everyone is just because it's a newborn title... There's like what, 10 people active in forum and perhaps a generous number of 20 on Discord that's active in chats.
"This toggle aspect was revealed years ago", oh right, so I guess at the time you didn't even have 30 people active... So why are/were you even basing the future of this game on this inaccurate data from a handful of people?

Value, yes... If you give the option for anyone to turn off people's customizations you devalue their money spent, because at that point people could as well just download a custom 3rd party skin that's only visible to the client, the same as your button except that people don't have to pay for 3rd party skins, which means you'll lose money on sales, GG.



Let me reverse engineer this whole thing because I haven't gotten a straight answer for the reason why this button should even exist.... So how'd you go about this?

There's a 1000 players complaining that too many players keeps saying they can't see their customizations to their paid skins...
There's also a 1000 players asking for a button to turn customizations to skins off...

Who do you support? The players that paid for their skins to be visible to everyone the way they've made it, or the people asking for customizations by players that paid for their appearance to be turned off?

I think we can assume this topic is gonna pick up speed once we get closer to the 1-million player milestone so why don't we just imagine there's a 1000 players of each side right now.
So which one of these groups does Crixa support? The players that wasted their money on skins, or the players that asks to block out player's creativity?
I'll side with the players that paid for their visuals to be visual.

Also, minor question.. Who ever asked for this button? Who's idea was it?
Was it suggested by someone in the staff and all the other bots just agreed as usual, or did a player suggest it and you guys based this idea on one player's suggestion alone? Because I can't even begin to imagine where this idea came from. Where ever it spawned from, it was certainly not a collective of thoughts from a larger audience, because nobody wants to pay for skins that other players won't see in an MMO. I'd get it if Em8er was a singleplayer game, but it ain't.

People want to be visual in this day and age, Grummz just said so himself during last CC, so don't take that away from us !!!

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

@Ronyn mentioned "That's the thing. Different people have such different view points on stuff, we aren't always going to understand the logic behind someone else choice.

Offering a variety of toggle options is trying to give as much variance in choice as possible."

This i can agree with i'd like to expand on some possible reason why e.g.

- Disliking the particular look of someone e.g. Wears frying pan slippers
- Finding the look offensive e.g. someone mocking them by exaggerating their look or stereotyping etc
- Inappropriate depending on culture/religion e.g. showing too much cleavage to skin exposure with some linking this as more perverted even sexualising than expressing.
- Parental / Guardian guided e.g. those younger may not be mature enough to understand certain looks and be easily influenced.
- Previous experience e.g. player who had a bad past in games and prefers to play and see thing in a
more light hearted way.
- Represented as it was meant to be e.g. player keeps the experience as close to the lore as possible to immerse into the Em8er world.
- Partially sighted / Colour blind E.g. may alter colour or even to default which may benefit the player to distinguish the avatar more easier.
- Performance issues e.g. Default option could have less details and extras compared to the amount of customization of the player(s) which could help.

Etc etc

Easy fix... Crixa doesn't sell frying pans or offensive looks.

Grummz has made it clear that he don't care about age restrictions... The game's gonna be rated for what it's gonna be rated. If kids wants to play this game they're gonna find ways to play it either way. If Em8er ends up being a 16+ title, let it be a 16+ title dammit! Stop messing around with alternative options for underaged kids that won't care about the damn restrictions anyway.

Yeah, "Represented as it was meant to be", I couldn't agree more! If I want to represent myself in red, don't change me to blue with a damn button.

Options are good to some extent, some are good, some are bad... But giving everything an option really bad.

"Optional Colorblind Mode" absolutely! - Off by default, multiple filters should exist.
"Optional Streamer Mode" absolutely! - On by default, for the content creators sake.
"Optional Censorship" absolutely! - Off by default, cuz more ppl hate it than love it.
"Optional Profanity Filter" absolutely! - On by default, cuz bad language is bad.

 

[Ronyn]

Hey so...If you were to become emperor of the world would you outlaw things like tinted glasses/windows, Kaleidoscope glasses, certain stain glass windows and stretchy mirrors because they allow people to alter their personal view of existing objects?

@punkbuzter#6186

Whether there is technically an aspect of decentralization involved is not relevent to the actual point here. If a skin buyers goal is to have their skin seen by others, then the percentage of people who will see that skin continues to matter overall. I understand we have some hardliners, like yourself, who has taken the "EVERYONE MUST SEE IT" stance, but at this time there is no evidence that is a widely held stance.
----
Yes, any data we have from the current fanbase is subject to change when we have a much larger fanbase. It could swing in a way where people agree with you, it could swing in a way you're even more in the minority, or this topic could turn out to be barely spoke of at all. Still, we have to use the current feedback, along with our design goals, and statistics from the history games, to come to decisions for what we should act on right now. Predictions are based on logic, data and experience, but they are not infallible. Yet, we obviously have to use them, we obviously have to pick a direction. Otherwise it would be literally impossible to for a new company to develop a new IP.
----
And to answer the "Who asked for this feature?". No one asked for this specific feature in itself, this feature was brought about as a solution to the various disagreements in the community on what kind of visuals/styles/sexiness level the skins should have. When there are different desires, sometimes the only option is to go hard to one side, sometimes you can look for options to work for more than one preference.

Much like how years ago, the firefall devs couldn't decide whether the game would be first or third person, so they decided to let it be something that people could toggle between at will. BTW, not everyone was happy about that choice either. A few people actually complained that players shouldn't be able to make the choice between first and third person view at will. It's kinda like...
There will always be at least some folks who disagree with just about any feature. Now where have I heard that before.....

----
We get it, you don't like the feature. You've explained how you feel about it and you have been heard. Your "arguments", such as they were, express your feeling toward the matter and we accept it.
Your stance is noted and respected. That is about the end of that.

Now, if we get a bunch of voices also proclaiming they have a problem with the feature, that is when we have reason to reconsider it. Until then.....

 

[Ronyn]

Easy fix... Crixa doesn't sell frying pans or offensive looks.

What is offensive to one may not be offensive to another. It's subjective.
you know that darn well.

Grummz has made it clear that he don't care about age restrictions...

That's not exactly what he said...lol

The game's gonna be rated for what it's gonna be rated. If kids wants to play this game they're gonna find ways to play it either way. If Em8er ends up being a 16+ title, let it be a 16+ title dammit! Stop messing around with alternative options for underaged kids that won't care about the damn restrictions anyway.

You're going with "Stop giving these kinds of tools to parents because kids may get around them anyway"

Seriously?

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

Hey so...If you were to become emperor of the world would you outlaw things like tinted glasses/windows, Kaleidoscope glasses, certain stain glass windows and stretchy mirrors because they allow people to alter their personal view of existing objects?

@punkbuzter#6186

Whether there is technically an aspect of decentralization involved is not relevent to the actual point here. If a skin buyers goal is to have their skin seen by others, then the percentage of people who will see that skin continues to matter overall. I understand we have some hardliners, like yourself, who has taken the "EVERYONE MUST SEE IT" stance, but at this time there is no evidence that is a widely held stance.
----
Yes, any data we have from the current fanbase is subject to change when we have a much larger fanbase. It could swing in a way where people agree with you, it could swing in a way you're even more in the minority, or this topic could turn out to be barely spoke of at all. Still, we have to use the current feedback, along with our design goals, and statistics from the history games, to come to decisions for what we should act on right now. Predictions are based on logic, data and experience, but they are not infallible. Yet, we obviously have to use them, we obviously have to pick a direction. Otherwise it would be literally impossible to for a new company to develop a new IP.
----
And to answer the "Who asked for this feature?". No one asked for this specific feature in itself, this feature was brought about as a solution to the various disagreements in the community on what kind of visuals/styles/sexiness level the skins should have. When there are different desires, sometimes the only option is to go hard to one side, sometimes you can look for options to work for more than one preference.

Much like how years ago, the firefall devs couldn't decide whether the game would be first or third person, so they decided to let it be something that people could toggle between at will. BTW, not everyone was happy about that choice either. A few people actually complained that players shouldn't be able to make the choice between first and third person view at will. It's kinda like...
There will always be at least some folks who disagree with just about any feature. Now where have I heard that before.....

----
We get it, you don't like the feature. You've explained how you feel about it and you have been heard. Your "arguments", such as they were, express your feeling toward the matter and we accept it.
Your stance is noted and respected. That is about the end of that.

Now, if we get a bunch of voices also proclaiming they have a problem with the feature, that is when we have reason to reconsider it. Until then.....

That's a nice but odd example, no I would not ban such things. But, at the same time if I bought such a thing then obviously I want it to be as I paid for... I wouldn't want anyone change how I want to look in that mirror.
Let's say I bought a round mirror that made me appear fat, I want it to make me appear fat, that's why I bought it... I don't want someone else coming in with a pair of goggles that changes me into a slim-shady when I'm about to tell him a joke about my fat body in said mirror... Experience ruined.

See, that's also a problem because anything is subject to change... Em8er could as well turn out to be a 2D game like Terraria using that as your go-to argument for everything. Sometimes when there's too many options and choices, even tho both options and choices are generally good, can backfire and take a turn for the worse. People are comfortable seeing what everyone else sees because that's how all the other games work, as long as the developer doesn't start selling immersion breaking stuff in the store, like a medieval flying pink horse and wagon in a dark ultra-futuristic science fiction game, cuz that's when the developer intentionally wants to kill their own game.

Ok so assuming we have like 30 people active in chat during CC in 2022, and I'm guessing this was discussed somewhere between 2018-2020, i'll guestimate aprox half of that were active during that discussion. And now you have me.
Regardless, this still does not provide a reason to the answer of why this option was picked over the other. I have given you multiple reasons why it should NOT exist, the only argument I've heard in its favor is that some people like it some people don't and you guys just picked one at random (that's not very thought out!). And to that I say the exact same in return, with everything that has been said previously. If we had an old scale where we could put our arguments, right now it'd tilt heavily in my favor.
Give me a good reason for its existence other than "some people might some people might not", and I'll give it a deeper thought.

Again, people didn't pay for 1st or 3rd person camera options... And the entire game (Firefall) was in fact FREE.
In Em8er, we pay for both the game, and the skins within. Do you understand how frustrating it is to me having to tell the developers to think different when it's about your customers damn money? For all I know, the people that wanted this button never paid shit, or they're tired of rich bastards always wanting to show off...
I agree with them, but not to the point where I'd want this button.

(adding comment to your 2nd reply in here...)
Grummz has more than once pointed fingers at Blizzard laughing as they went through with their censorship fiasco with the paintings etc, telling us, that that's not how Em8er's gonna be like because here we ADD lewd instead of removing it... Hell, Grummz even said - while he was afraid Em8er'd be too lewd, his wife said it wasn't lewd enough xD
I also strongly believe that I recall Grummz saying that Crixa does NOT bother with ESRB/PEGI ratings because he doesn't want the game to focus on that. Sex sells, and everyone knows it because it has always done.

The 1st level of prevention should happen at the store, by the publisher if any, before the customer buys or downloads the game.
The 2nd level of prevention should happen during account creation, where age is required. Certain levels of censorship can be added here if the the 1st level failed.
The 3rd level of prevention should obviously be to expect the parents doing their parenting, getting to know what their kids does on their devices.


When actually inside the game, when all 3 levels of prevention has been passed and approved, don't babysit my 80yr old ass because "some" kids may slip through. I see kids playing games like GTA with hookers and drugs, Doom where characters getting their spines ripped out... Don't tell me that some skin showing on a sexy woman is gonna damage a kid worse than GTA or Doom. It's not even close...
It's another discussion for another topic, but that just triggers me! I am so sick and tired of this SJW double standard I want to shove my fingers down my throat and puke till I bleed.

 

[Ronyn]

......

Who's points are you even arguing against?... sigh. Nevermind.

Look man. You were given very clear reasoning for why we are adding it. You just don't like it/agree with it. Which is fine, but don't confuse the two things.
I have stated multiple times that people just have different stances on this issue.

I'm done.

 

[Pandagnome]

. So why is it that you want to tamper with the visuals of the shit that we pay (extra) for, but not the stuff we don't, like the mountain?

Mountains are stationary and we don't control those but as an avatar you do and moving around.
Wouldn't mind to see a mountain from super mario world hmm

Easy fix... Crixa doesn't sell frying pans or offensive looks.

Grummz has made it clear that he don't care about age restrictions... The game's gonna be rated for what it's gonna be rated. If kids wants to play this game they're gonna find ways to play it either way. If Em8er ends up being a 16+ title, let it be a 16+ title dammit! Stop messing around with alternative options for underaged kids that won't care about the damn restrictions anyway.

Yeah, "Represented as it was meant to be", I couldn't agree more! If I want to represent myself in red, don't change me to blue with a damn button.

Options are good to some extent, some are good, some are bad... But giving everything an option really bad.

"Optional Colorblind Mode" absolutely! - Off by default, multiple filters should exist.
"Optional Streamer Mode" absolutely! - On by default, for the content creators sake.
"Optional Censorship" absolutely! - Off by default, cuz more ppl hate it than love it.
"Optional Profanity Filter" absolutely! - On by default, cuz bad language is bad.

What if someone created a frying pan slippers to replace the look of boots for the pilot, might not happen but it could?

As with offensive looks i know some who may find cut marks with animation offensive to someone because of self harm. The thing is filter option lets them decide what they want to see... so why do you insist on forcing others to see something if they have the choice not to?

I have not heard what Grummz mentioned about age restriction, i do know concerns of some folks and that would be one of them.

If someone changed you to blue it may be because it is someone's red in their sight.
Then again it could be they prefer smurfs and enjoy blueberries or they were inspired by the movie avatar etc

I do not claim to say what someone likes or dislikes, it is important to give those options so that they can decide what they like instead of someone stating you must see it because of paying skin.

That reasoning does not make sense to me, instead people will decide what they like to see to a point. I know we cannot make everyone happy, because in each of our minds we have a perspective of how we think Em8er could be, and how we may look ingame.

For that reason the button is a tool and whom will use this or not decides on the player!
Since you prefer not to and those who feel the same as you will surely not use this option.
For those who do they have that choice and that i feel is fair.

The 1st level of prevention should happen at the store, by the publisher if any, before the customer buys or downloads the game.
The 2nd level of prevention should happen during account creation, where age is required. Certain levels of censorship can be added here if the the 1st level failed.
The 3rd level of prevention should obviously be to expect the parents doing their parenting, getting to know what their kids does on their devices.

The process for this add extra steps and may put off people than encourage to hop in.
Possible issues with these steps:

- If its through payment option that can be paid by someone else
- Age can be falsified
- Sadly not all parents are attentive

I see kids playing games like GTA with hookers and drugs, Doom where characters getting their spines ripped out... Don't tell me that some skin showing on a sexy woman is gonna damage a kid worse than GTA or Doom. It's not even close...

Your right there are far far more visually evoking games with all sorts of things.
As you already know there are various games out there some not so and some that let the adults be the adults.

However if the game was age rated to 18+ then there is less of an issue for the adults with regards to censoring / filter to an extant.

On the other hand less of an audience below that age. Then i can argue that some 18+ games have managed to play because a friend / cousin had this that i was able to play in their home rather than mine at the time.

An example warframe is shown to be

ESRB rating 17+
PEGI rating 18 +
ACB rating MA 15+
CERO rated D

The higher rating is due to the violence mainly.

However with the settings filter options and some parent guidance there have been players at the age of 8+ and onwards.

Such as Gore turned off, profanity filter on, creating own clan, less public match making.
This doesn't always happen and no one can ever really supervise all the time!

So these optional filters give choice and as a result encourage a wider audience to play the game.

The other way that could be done is to have 2 installation choice.

1) Em8er Game (Optional Filter customization)
Suitable for most players to create desirable experience.

2) Em8er Game (None filtered)
None filtered content for users all to be seen without optional filter.

hmm

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

Who's points are you even arguing against?... sigh. Nevermind.

Look man. You were given very clear reasoning for why we are adding it. You just don't like it/agree with it. Which is fine, but don't confuse the two things.
I have stated multiple times that people just have different stances on this issue.

I'm done.

I get that you guys made a choice, now I'm asking why this choice was made. You clearly have NOT stated why other than randomly picking one side over the other without reasoning.
So here I've been giving you the reasons to remove it, yet nobody can give me a straight answer for why it should still be there.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

Mountains are stationary and we don't control those but as an avatar you do and moving around.
Wouldn't mind to see a mountain from super mario world hmm

View attachment 5489




What if someone created a frying pan slippers to replace the look of boots for the pilot, might not happen but it could?

As with offensive looks i know some who may find cut marks with animation offensive to someone because of self harm. The thing is filter option lets them decide what they want to see... so why do you insist on forcing others to see something if they have the choice not to?

I have not heard what Grummz mentioned about age restriction, i do know concerns of some folks and that would be one of them.

If someone changed you to blue it may be because it is someone's red in their sight.
Then again it could be they prefer smurfs and enjoy blueberries or they were inspired by the movie avatar etc

I do not claim to say what someone likes or dislikes, it is important to give those options so that they can decide what they like instead of someone stating you must see it because of paying skin.

That reasoning does not make sense to me, instead people will decide what they like to see to a point. I know we cannot make everyone happy, because in each of our minds we have a perspective of how we think Em8er could be, and how we may look ingame.

For that reason the button is a tool and whom will use this or not decides on the player!
Since you prefer not to and those who feel the same as you will surely not use this option.
For those who do they have that choice and that i feel is fair.




The process for this add extra steps and may put off people than encourage to hop in.
Possible issues with these steps:

- If its through payment option that can be paid by someone else
- Age can be falsified
- Sadly not all parents are attentive




Your right there are far far more visually evoking games with all sorts of things.
As you already know there are various games out there some not so and some that let the adults be the adults.

However if the game was age rated to 18+ then there is less of an issue for the adults with regards to censoring / filter to an extant.

On the other hand less of an audience below that age. Then i can argue that some 18+ games have managed to play because a friend / cousin had this that i was able to play in their home rather than mine at the time.

An example warframe is shown to be

ESRB rating 17+
PEGI rating 18 +
ACB rating MA 15+
CERO rated D

The higher rating is due to the violence mainly.

However with the settings filter options and some parent guidance there have been players at the age of 8+ and onwards.

Such as Gore turned off, profanity filter on, creating own clan, less public match making.
This doesn't always happen and no one can ever really supervise all the time!

So these optional filters give choice and as a result encourage a wider audience to play the game.

The other way that could be done is to have 2 installation choice.

1) Em8er Game (Optional Filter customization)
Suitable for most players to create desirable experience.

2) Em8er Game (None filtered)
None filtered content for users all to be seen without optional filter.

hmm

Well that's a nice option you got right there, it could be a button during installation to opt for alternative "streamer friendly" textures. But my concern is more about streamers getting banned or is unable to make content out of this game, not so much about parental control. I think parents these days are too lazy and too out-of-touch with their kids, and this lazieness should not come at the cost of the adult audience in a virtual world. GTA gets to keep its hookers and drugs, Doom gets to keep its gore, why can't other games get to keep their sex appeal when violent games gets to keep their violence?

I don't think this game is going to be that advanced that you can literally shape new items as you see fit, this studio doesn't have the resources for that, not even Blizzard does, which is why we don't have it.

Yes, mountains, avatars... Only difference is that we pay for skins in both time to customize and money to get the textures, we don't pay for the mountains. So why give the option to turn off customizations that someone paid for to be visible? It doesn't make any sense.

But this game isn't about smurfs or blueberries, it's about fighting the aliens. We're gonna fight in big mechs already covering up 90% of the skins as it is, in the lightest of frames... You won't see squat of that skin you've paid for in a Heavy Frame which means the value of a skin is already reduced.
This leaves appreciation hours to a very strict and limited number of places where one gets to show off their skins and creativity... But covering up +90% of your skin throughout most of your time spent in the game isn't enough, they want to let people turn that off all together with the push of a button.

Wow... I'm starting to wonder how humanity has survived without this button all these years before.
Yeah, you're almost there... You understand I'm asking for a reason to why this button is gonna be there, but like everyone else it fails because you guys just revert back to the good old "some may like it some may not" argument... And it's the same for the ones that doesn't want it... Except that I have provided actual reasons why it shouldn't exist, because it devalues people's money spent, and there's already frames covering up their skins 90% of the time anyway.
We don't get to chose the color and shape of a mountain, that's fair because we don't pay for such customizations... But skins we do pay for to customize, and should therefore not be allowed to be tampered with!

 

[Pandagnome]

I get that you guys made a choice, now I'm asking why this choice was made. You clearly have NOT stated why other than randomly picking one side over the other without reasoning.
So here I've been giving you the reasons to remove it, yet nobody can give me a straight answer for why it should still be there.

Only difference is that we pay for skins in both time to customize and money to get the textures, we don't pay for the mountains. So why give the option to turn off customizations that someone paid for to be visible? It doesn't make any sense.

I am going to list some thoughts as to why:

- Cultural /religious views some may find it against their religious/cultural acceptance
- Preference choice of user
- Countries some may ban games of their strict rules e.g. Germany

- Family friendly option some may want to include their children and make it appropriate.
- Comedy, yes some may find that offensive!
etc etc

But this game isn't about smurfs or blueberries, it's about fighting the aliens. We're gonna fight in big mechs already covering up 90% of the skins as it is, in the lightest of frames... You won't see squat of that skin you've paid for in a Heavy Frame which means the value of a skin is already reduced.
This leaves appreciation hours to a very strict and limited number of places where one gets to show off their skins and creativity... But covering up +90% of your skin throughout most of your time spent in the game isn't enough, they want to let people turn that off all together with the push of a button.

Well ofc there are aliens and being in mechs sure it may be that the player isn't a blue berry could be the blue ant?

What i like to know how much of the gameplay is in mechs and as pilots because if we can use meks & be out as pilots this lets us see the customization better in missions.

I am sure there was a discussion somewhere in the forums about that.

Though there will be circumstances that benefit the meks more than the pilots i'd imagine.


You do know people can revert back with another push of a button too right it isn't permanent!
I wonder if we can check other folks profile and see how they look too?
I am interested to see this hard driver mode when activated and when deactivated.

I'm starting to wonder how humanity has survived without this button all these years before.

Its like that missile button its not pushed but its there just incase.

my concern is more about streamers getting banned or is unable to make content out of this game

That depends on the streaming provider, and partly the game so its good to check those rules out
before hand so there isn't any surprises.

 

[Ronyn]

So here I've been giving you the reasons to remove it

You provided exactly one sensical reason why we should remove it: This toggle stuff makes you personally feel like it devalues your purchase of the skin, and you suggest other people might feel the same. Which, again, we respect that, and as I stated IF and when many others express the same feeling we then have reason to reexamine it.

I get that you guys made a choice, now I'm asking why this choice was made. You clearly have NOT stated why other than randomly picking one side over the other without reasoning.
........... yet nobody can give me a straight answer for why it should still be there.

Incorrect.
Your original post in this thread asked the question, the answer to WHY is literally in my first post.
Later you asked how it came up in the first place, then I answered that.

I'm pointing this out in case you honestly just missed it, because it is my job to make sure people get answers to game related questions. Now, do not act like you weren't answered directly, and do not ping me about it as if you weren't answered and then redirected to that answer.

 

[Pandagnome]

At least now if anyone is curious about skin toggle button the answers are there.

With that thought of customization what will you all be for Halloween??
I am considering to be The Grim Beeper with my trusted horn!

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

I am going to list some thoughts as to why:

- Cultural /religious views some may find it against their religious/cultural acceptance
- Preference choice of user
- Countries some may ban games of their strict rules e.g. Germany

- Family friendly option some may want to include their children and make it appropriate.
- Comedy, yes some may find that offensive!
etc etc



Well ofc there are aliens and being in mechs sure it may be that the player isn't a blue berry could be the blue ant?

What i like to know how much of the gameplay is in mechs and as pilots because if we can use meks & be out as pilots this lets us see the customization better in missions.

I am sure there was a discussion somewhere in the forums about that.

Though there will be circumstances that benefit the meks more than the pilots i'd imagine.


You do know people can revert back with another push of a button too right it isn't permanent!
I wonder if we can check other folks profile and see how they look too?
I am interested to see this hard driver mode when activated and when deactivated.



Its like that missile button its not pushed but its there just incase.




That depends on the streaming provider, and partly the game so its good to check those rules out
before hand so there isn't any surprises.

At any rate, people can be offended by anything and in todays culture they easily are, and with that logic it'd be impossible to make a game. It's their choice if they want to play or not, just as it is yours and mine. I do not believe the lack of this button would present a major issue because this button has never existed in another game before, and I, unlike people here see the reason why - as been stated before.

Choices are good, to some extent. Sometimes people get one too many choices and takes a turn for the worse instead. I don't believe Crixa is the first developer to think of something similar, it would've solved a lot of problems in the past regarding eastern games being plagued by the westernization of many games in the past, but they have avoided it, to put everyone on the same plane of visual and graphical content such as fashion etc, because it'd devalue what people buy...
After all, there's 2 reasons why you'd buy alternative graphics...
One is because you want to look different yourself, the other is that you want to look good to others. But if you get that 2nd reason taken away because people turn your customizations off, what's the point of buying official skins?
Quiet literally - with low effort I could extract the official skins since they'd obviously be in the game files, and re-inject the same textures to give myself a personal change client-side, without paying.
Basically just replacing the textures and mesh of the default skin with an otherwise paid one, copy-paste.

For instance... Planetside 2 is a 1st person shooter. In some vehicles you can go to 3rd person but when you're out gunning with your light assault or medic or whatever, you never get to see your bought character skins. Planetside 2 is a prime example of reason nr2 where you buy a skin to look badass to others.

And I believe most of us who's gonna be out doing the main gameplay-loop thumping materials ain't gonna spend much time outside our frames, and if we do, it's probably gonna be in a UI menu tinkering with stuff. And as a pilot or a driver, you're probably gonna spend most of your time in 3rd person camera outside the vehicle, or 1st person in your seat... In current state, I'd say you'll probably get to see your character about 5-10% of your entire time spent playing the game at 1000 hours.

So, when we're actually outside our frames, outside our vehicles, the money we spend on customizations is closer to being a vital part to why someone would actually spend money. Because if the few 5-10% of our time spent outside our vehicles and frames, this button is already at the border of being completely redundant for the reasons given to why it should exist. At this point, the main reason for buying a skin in Em8er is the exact same as buying a skin in Planetside 2... To look good to others, which is why this button should not exist.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

You provided exactly one sensical reason why we should remove it: This toggle stuff makes you personally feel like it devalues your purchase of the skin, and you suggest other people might feel the same. Which, again, we respect that, and as I stated IF and when many others express the same feeling we then have reason to reexamine it.


Incorrect.
Your original post in this thread asked the question, the answer to WHY is literally in my first post.
Later you asked how it came up in the first place, then I answered that.

I'm pointing this out in case you honestly just missed it, because it is my job to make sure people get answers to game related questions. Now, do not act like you weren't answered directly, and do not ping me about it as if you weren't answered and then redirected to that answer.

Putting control in the hands of parent:
(This button allows parents/guardians to set the visual level the game is at.)
Censorship is a very sensitive topic, and here's the counter to that.
You could have the website automatically detect whatever age the kid or the parents have put in during account creation, and when they open the launcher, the launcher will download the de-sexualized skins without ever having to check a box.
BUT, this de-sexualization should still --> NOT <-- remove player's customizations to their skins, instead, add an underlying layer of clothing like a spandex suit, the G-Suit is already there, use that!
This is extremely simple to do without ruining what players paid for.


Personal choice:
(Every gamer has their own personal style. Some folks are annoyed/distracted by scantily clad characters.)
Such has been the way since the dawn of gaming, and there is no reason to believe people won't be annoyed/distracted anyway. For instance, I'm annoyed that you added it, some may be annoyed if you don't... But what makes it more right to add it instead of leaving it out?
I'm on the consumer/customer's side, where they should have to power to display the things they pay for, as they paid.
It appears that Crixa is not.

A quick note about Value:
(Different people want different things and there is no perfect solution that will please both perspectives.)
And you will never do. But what makes you believe you can change what has been part of this culture since its beginning? There is no other game that has this feature, you said so yourself, so why does Em8er suddenly out of the blue need one? The answer is, it doesn't! No game in history has ever needed it, neither does this one... The only reason why it needs this button is because you say it does.

(This toggle feature is generally well received, even applauded by many. I am certain there are some folks who don't like it. that's cool.)
As is most of everything. Everyone's nostalgic, and you know it. But if you haven't noticed, the +30k accounts you have here is the silent majority, because they just want to see the game done, they want progression... Meanwhile they're playing other games.
So what makes you believe there won't be a hellstorm of complaints once they start becoming active?
Nobody knows, but at least I know that the lack of this button hasn't been an issue before, but maybe it will if it does once people realize their paid skins and customizations are being nulled with a button.
I for one is negative about this button, for multiple reasons which has been given. Most importantly because I believe people has the right to show off the things they buy, the things they create - as they've spent their time or money, possibly both to address their characters as their alternate selves.
Fashion, character customization and visual expression is an extremely important part of RPG's, Grummz said so himself last CC, which directly counters the use of this button.


I have debunked and disproved all of your points, and provided with better alternatives with more solid counter-arguments and history of a previously perfectly fine and working gaming history.
Now, I'm asking what else it takes for Crixa to consider the complete removal of this button?

Side Note:
I want to pay for the skins, it is my way of showing support for the efforts. I have, and I will continue to do so if you walk the right path in this development. This is why I'm fighting for the removal of this button, because I want to support. But if my customizations gets redundant, devalued, or considered unimportant because everyone can just toggle off what I have spent time and effort into making with a switch, then you won't get my support, and you'll have to deal with aftermath like this.
I honestly didn't know about this until someone mentioned it on Discord, then my world collapsed... Not because I'm selfish and want to abuse any systems or scarring some kids for life, but because I worry about the industry. You guys have 1 chance, the last and only chance you guys got to help Grummz restore what was ruined (Firefall). He has a dead game in his history, let's help this one live, together, by fixing the small problems first, one at a time.
If there's a 100 problems this game's gonna have, removing this button gives us just short of 99 problems left.

Be the player, realize if you're not gonna spend much time enjoying the ass of your own character because of frames, vehicles, UI's... What's left is knowing that at least you know you look badass to others. I said the same to Pandagnome, "Planetside 2 is a prime example of reason nr2 where you buy a skin to look badass to others." - because it's a 1st person shooter... You barely get to enjoy the things you paid for but you know you look nice to everyone else.