About the game loop!

[VRK9]

I read about the game loop of EM8ER, but I missed somethings that I saw in other games that ended up to ruin those games even if they have a closed game loop.

In many recent games, especially F2P, players can easily see the game loop, players do X thing to get Y things, to do XX things to get YY things…, the problem I see in those games is the motivation for the game loop. Even if the X thing is fun, doing it over and over and over… becomes soon or later annoying, when asked to some game DEVS from those games, they say (especially in PVP games like MOBA, BATTLE ROYAL, team-based shooters…): “the game is usually different from match to match because players will play with different players and against different players”. I agree to a certain small point but disagree on the rest, because things like guilds (or other community driven content to make players working together for a common goal), some variety in content… that can extend a lot the “fun factor” while reducing the “annoying factor”, where DEVS say: “doing those kind of things are expensive and consume a lot of resources”, so they just make more of the same until the player base shrinks to a very specific player base, and if that is enough to pay the bills of the game it’s everything fine, if not they just try something “a little different” before shutting down the game, that in most of the cases is too late.

So, what I want to say is that the game loop is important BUT is also important the fun factor and how the game company want to deliver that to players, what they want to do and what they don’t want to do, so players can see better if they want to spend time playing that game or not, AND if the game company want to “evolve” the game later with new kinds of playable content or not, because unfortunately I still see a lot of games that after some years after launch they still have exactly the same kind of playable content, just added more of the same.

What do you think about this and about Em8er?

 

[Pandagnome]

As an example a game that i return to most is l4d2 it is an old game and maybe its because of the options such as:

- Co-op
- Vs
- Campaign
- Survival
- Difficulty variations such as realism, expert, advanced etc
- Community released mods e.g. skins, Ui, sounds, maps etc
- Game play it is straight forward
etc

Some say that l4d2 is better than back4blood!

I think Em8er will have a wider variety of things to do and roles this would appeal to a larger audience.
What i'd really hope is they polish the main game loop so that there are no sneaky bugs and that the core game play is super!.


I like the idea that there is a purpose to resource gathering and improving our thumprs, weapons, Mek frame and help the bases, others etc.

If the A.I Director could pull some interesting surprises and change up the experience for the player, this could make it less predictable and be challenging too such as:

- Changing the weather pattern e.g fog, heavy rain etc
- Environmental hazard e.g avalanche, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions etc
- Rank of tsihu to appear lower or higher rank to change up the difficulty
- Number of knee biters or a mega knee biter that is mashed into one and if hit enough explodes into micro knee biters that is better dealt with melee
- Day, night cycle as it could be more tougher in the night
- Perhaps sometimes enemies are in hibernation inside those crystal blocks that come from the sky and break out for a surprise to add variety.
- Drilling a certain area could reveal some highlighted surfaces that may lead to underground regions or is it a trap hmm, perhaps this is for some specific thumpr types.

If this game loop is done great i can imagine that everything around the core game play would supplement the fun and with the addition of customization, exploring, achievements and so on this could be a well loved game.

 

[ChAzZ_NuT]

Hey VRK9 thanks for bringing this forwards to the forums. This kinda stuff is always really interesting to talk about. Is the above image, what you are referring to when you say you've read the game-loop? And are we talking about the vertical-slice-demo?

I think what you are trying to say, is that it is very important that the developers work with the community whilst developing and balancing the game.

The game-loop itself has to be established and it needs to run like a well-oiled machine, because if you don't have a strong foundation for the game then everything else will crumble around it. And then once that is laid out, the developers can work on adding the additional bits and bobs that all contribute to that experience and make it fun.

I totally agree with you.

Once the game-loop has been closed, I suppose then we will have a good idea of what resources the dev's have to put towards other stuff.

 

[VRK9]

Is the above image, what you are referring to when you say you've read the game-loop?

Yes.

I think what you are trying to say, is that it is very important that the developers work with the community whilst developing and balancing the game.

Yes again.

The game-loop itself has to be established and it needs to run like a well-oiled machine, because if you don't have a strong foundation for the game then everything else will crumble around it.

Not necessarily, in many old mmos many guilds have build in a part of the game, like crafting or gathering, creating a game loop inside the game loop, or players playing the game in ways that devs didn't think of it, (then instead of balancing it, many devs just take off that part of the game). Or even in some games where players instead of playing the game just play with each other (social part like rp communities and such).

And then once that is laid out, the developers can work on adding the additional bits and bobs that all contribute to that experience and make it fun.

I agreed, but as i mentioned before, i see a lot of games that just add the same, and after some years those games still only have the same 1/2 things (game modes, ways of playing) to play they had when the game launched.

 

[Sy]

What do you think about this and about Em8er?

The game loop for the Kickstarter vertical slice is just fine. It has to have the limitations so it's achievable. Any of your concerns are therefore best thought of in the context of a release so I'll talk about that.

"Game loop" is a limited understanding. It's more like "primary game loop". It's the foundation philosophy of the game, not the only way to play. You are right to think of this as potentially getting boring. However, you are wrong when suggesting that adding more of the same isn't a good idea. I'll talk about that later.

First to address the primary game loop.

Several aspects of this are more complicated than the goal list for Kickstarter:

- The mass-battle push-pull over terrain (zone ownership changes).
- The tech level (zone ownership changes) alters gear/crafting.
- Using resources for base building, and "using bases", e.g. using the benefits we build any particular base for.
- "Events", however that is decided, are meant to be randomly placed and occasionally interact to give even more variety. Think the Firefall melding tornadoes.
- Building and using multiple frames for gameplay variety.
- Making and using vehicles, however that works.

There are also other aspects of the game which are entirely undecided, such as talents or pilot attributes.

This whole list impacting the game loop gives it incredible variety.

Regarding adding more of the same and that getting boring. I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding by devs and yourself.

I personally can't stand when the game is adjusted in stupid ways just to make it "fresh". I can't stand when new gameplay is added like pet battles. I really do want more of the same. I want more zones, more guns and more enemies. I want an endless amount of discovery and use of the core gameplay.

I will never, ever, get tired of the actual game. I don't want it to become something else because someone thinks it needs to be fresh. I bought a shooter and I don't want to end up with a card game.

I can easily point at World of Warcraft, not just for it's idiotic additions but for the fact that every single expansion has them add some new fundamental mechanic, and that it's "the latest terrible feature" only to have it swapped out with a new terrible feature next expansion.

It's exceptionally dangerous to build a game like that. See Path of Exile and the problem of free-to-play. They combine reworking the game with a try-free concept. This let's people pick it up, play for a bit, get overwhelmed by the changes, and drop it.

The core gameplay loop is exceptionally important to nail down. When it is built in such a way that it can be modified and appended-to, then it is endlessly-fun. For a player to get sick of it is for a player to just not like that style of game any more. Fine. People grow out of playing cards, DOTAs, MMOs, etc. which is fine. People will grow out of playing this particular "sci-fi shooter-MMO (etc)" or get attracted to some similar newer game and that's also fine.

 

[ChAzZ_NuT]

The game loop for the Kickstarter vertical slice is just fine. It has to have the limitations so it's achievable. Any of your concerns are therefore best thought of in the context of a release so I'll talk about that.

"Game loop" is a limited understanding. It's more like "primary game loop". It's the foundation philosophy of the game, not the only way to play. You are right to think of this as potentially getting boring. However, you are wrong when suggesting that adding more of the same isn't a good idea. I'll talk about that later.

First to address the primary game loop.

Several aspects of this are more complicated than the goal list for Kickstarter:

- The mass-battle push-pull over terrain (zone ownership changes).
- The tech level (zone ownership changes) alters gear/crafting.
- Using resources for base building, and "using bases", e.g. using the benefits we build any particular base for.
- "Events", however that is decided, are meant to be randomly placed and occasionally interact to give even more variety. Think the Firefall melding tornadoes.
- Building and using multiple frames for gameplay variety.
- Making and using vehicles, however that works.

There are also other aspects of the game which are entirely undecided, such as talents or pilot attributes.

This whole list impacting the game loop gives it incredible variety.

Regarding adding more of the same and that getting boring. I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding by devs and yourself.

I personally can't stand when the game is adjusted in stupid ways just to make it "fresh". I can't stand when new gameplay is added like pet battles. I really do want more of the same. I want more zones, more guns and more enemies. I want an endless amount of discovery and use of the core gameplay.

I will never, ever, get tired of the actual game. I don't want it to become something else because someone thinks it needs to be fresh. I bought a shooter and I don't want to end up with a card game.

I can easily point at World of Warcraft, not just for it's idiotic additions but for the fact that every single expansion has them add some new fundamental mechanic, and that it's "the latest terrible feature" only to have it swapped out with a new terrible feature next expansion.

It's exceptionally dangerous to build a game like that. See Path of Exile and the problem of free-to-play. They combine reworking the game with a try-free concept. This let's people pick it up, play for a bit, get overwhelmed by the changes, and drop it.

The core gameplay loop is exceptionally important to nail down. When it is built in such a way that it can be modified and appended-to, then it is endlessly-fun. For a player to get sick of it is for a player to just not like that style of game any more. Fine. People grow out of playing cards, DOTAs, MMOs, etc. which is fine. People will grow out of playing this particular "sci-fi shooter-MMO (etc)" or get attracted to some similar newer game and that's also fine.

Thanks Sy, you put this way better than I could have. xD