Modding, question, discussion and proper thinking for the future

[cyriann#5305]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post here, following on Shadow's advices to drop a little conversation I stired a few hours ago (as of the writting).

First, what is it about ? I'll just pluck in the disussion I had on the discord for you all to know what I'm posting about.

ME : Our of curiosity, I'm using a surpris g amount of mods in different games. From QOL changes (obviously impossible in MMO types) to purely visual changes. Would there be a hard stop to this for Em8er or would it more be in kind of a grey area?(modifié)
me and my random questions again

Kotowo : grey areas always lead to using hax in a certain way ^^


ME : Hence why I am interested in knowing if there is any statements on it.
For example FFXIV completely tolerates visual mods but will swing the hammer on you if you link your account to things you publish.

Shadow : It was part of Firefall in some way, and it was brought up a couple times, but due to the nature of how the game's going to be funded through a cosmetic store, it is unlikely that It'll release a modding api to mess with, also it's more work for a loss in potential profit. It's mostly been small chats about this topic, but it hasn't been decided in full, yet. Just unlikely.

ME : Personally in such a game it would stop at just messing a bit with cosmetics I own, like altering colors, or maybe even would drive me towards getting cosmetics to get access to a mod that interests me. But I do know not all players would play it this way.

Lomgren : It's a good question to bring up at the next Chief Chat if you can make it to it.

Shadow : It's a bit of a double edged question
have to consider both ends

ME : I know I'll keep this around and try to bring it up if I can be there for the next chief chat.

As you can see this topic is of course devisive, and I wouldn't expect any less, after all modding has and will probably always remain a grey zone where things are difficult to regulate or control.

My opinion is simple, modding, is a thing that may or may not happen, but can and will always bring the community to work together and strengthen it. Additionally, I know in my personal case t is a thing I like, I made some of my best friends though this. As well, it can also give a hand in roleplaying aspects for some people, say a player who wants a very specific look but can't achieve it normally, modding it in wouldn't harm anyone, as well, if you have a detail that bugs you about a piece you like to use, like a part sticking out, or a draw line being weird or unfitting, and recoloring doesn't help, you could always use some time to edit it out.

Modding is a versatile tool, and I think MMOs should take it into consideration to avoid it spinning out of reach or control, as long as the community gets to understand the limits they can operate in to mod, they will, there's no reason to ban a practice that will appear anyways, giving it guidelines is the best thing to do.

Now I wish to stir up the discussion, what are YOUR thoughts on this matter ?

 

[Wyntyr]

I know some modding was allowed in FF (Grummz's previous project of this type). Perhaps some can be allowed in Em.8ER as well. If he doesn't reply to this thread you can also ask in a Chief Chat.

 

[Omnires]

Over my 30+ years of playing video games. I've always loved games that allowed for some modding with clear rules everyone can understand and the dev even support it. Such most of it is are changes to how things look or adding in new quests or macros for things like pets to change how the behave (I still remember the days of when I played games like Anarchy Online and making macro scripts for emotes and pets. I even made my own personal song and dance emote for when I killed bosses.). And people even go as far and making mods to add in mini-games to play. Although you can just look at games like Counter Strike and DOTA to see how a good mod can spin off into it own thing to breed a new types of games.

Although Warframe does a good job with Tennogen. In how they let players and artist come up with no designs and looks for things. If enough of the player base like looks and it falls in line with the feel of the game the devs will add in. That way they can make sure nothing gets into the game that is beyond their control and people don't be adding in things that would be offensive to people and groups.

But even without mods if the game allows people enough freedoms to play the game in how they like to play that is can change how people view the game. As people can be playing the same thing right beside each other and totally different experiences. This works best in games with modular systems I believe. Where players can mix and match systems in the game make something new or min-max the perfect build without the need to get out a calculator or look at wiki because there is no hidden information or systems.

-----------------------------
Old gamer tangent.
Even without mods one of the things I always loved was how in some MMOs the devs give people a lot of freedom in how to make groups and how the chain out power worked within them. Sure you had the normal types of guilds and factions where one person is the leader with all the power, and there is the co-leader or sub-leader, and than everyone else. But there was also guilds that break down into squads like a real army and with each title having it's own powers within the guild. There was also free form guilds where was no leader and everyone had the same level power, so they would vote on things. There was guilds that was set up like a family tree with custom titles for all the members denoting who they are in the family (like "Omnires father of ___" or "Omnires ___'s brother") and give a small buff for working in teams with other family members. And so on, and so on. Not even doing anything to the game itself, but giving players the freedom in what types of relationships they had with other players added to that sense of community. Even more so if the game allowed for things like guild only uniforms that only members of the guild can wear. Ha, back in my PKK (Player Killer Killer) days PKers and griefers knew to run and hide when they seen people wearing some notable guild uniforms as some guilds prided themselves as peacekeepers and bounty hunters to counter the griefing and things like spawn camping.

 

[cyriann#5305]

A very good point you are bringing Omires.

As a matter of fact, I may be too used to games having restrictive frames, even warframe in some ways, that then mods proceed to break in fun and enticing ways.

That's the kind of thoughts I hoped to hear, as you are right Em8er could perfectly be modular enough as is to not need any modding to be appealing and fun.

 

[SomeUnregPunk]

They way they talk about ember makes me think it will be sort of like how Eden Star is like. You have a certain control on how much you can change an item or weapon. Though Eden Star is much closer to final product than Ember is. Though that game is mainly single player with the the devs trying the best to ensure a co-op multiplayer exists too.

but I digress... I think you are talking about macro mods right?

 

[cyriann#5305]

That would be interesting I'll have to look what is done in Eden Star to know then.

but I digress... I think you are talking about macro mods right?

Well no, we weren't only talking of macro mods, it was Omnires who spoke of those from experience in old MMOs, I'm more talking about 3d modeling and re-texturing kind of mods.

 

[Omnires]

I was never one of those artist types for games. I mean I had ideas for how things could look for sure. But because of my background I always focused on function over form. So my design thoughts was always straightforward, with looks of something always telling you what it is and what it can do. As I'm more on the science of combat as opposed to what just looks good. To me, beauty is when an objects function and fashion overlap. But I do remember making helping out some artists in the past make new weapons and stuff for game because the devs would allow players to designs to new weapons, cloths, and armor for the game every few months in a contest. And the ones what worked the best was the ones where the devs give people model boxes to work withing (anything you made had to fit withing that box because it was the size of the object in the game) and 3D blink character dummies so artist could play with how cloths would look and where was problem with things like lighting and placement (as some people wanted things like glowing energy/magic to run through the cloths. But it would pointless if no one could see it if your arm is always in the way because of how characters stand or hold weapons.).

So one of the easy things the Em-8er team can do to help the artists community out is so give them the measurements of character and object models. And if they wanted also release a mode tool kit with the blink standard models that they use as base for all the characters and objects of that type. It would the artists more information to work off of and let those who are into 3D modeling something to work with. It also would mean less work for the Dev team in the long run because the know all the design ideas people give them will fit the models in the game and all they have to do is code it, after they check to make sure that the designed itself is in alignment with the look and feel of the game.

 

[cyriann#5305]

What you propose here Omnires :

So one of the easy things the Em-8er team can do to help the artists community out is so give them the measurements of character and object models. And if they wanted also release a mode tool kit with the blink standard models that they use as base for all the characters and objects of that type. It would the artists more information to work off of and let those who are into 3D modeling something to work with. It also would mean less work for the Dev team in the long run because the know all the design ideas people give them will fit the models in the game and all they have to do is code it, after they check to make sure that the designed itself is in alignment with the look and feel of the game.

Is a system that is in place in Warframe, the Tennogen, where players are provided models and guidelines to propose design works to create new skins. What I was refering to, are more player made adjustements to what exists, to suit your desired look.
For example, a cool armor exists but it has THAT one tiny minuscule detail that just hurts your eyes and you want to change itIt is this kind of mod I was talking about. Or a paint pattern you think would fit better.

Of course your idea of a player based skin creation is a great idea, but I also noticed it takes a bit away from the creators freedom since they have to strictly fall within the guidelines. One aspect I appreciate of modding is that it can work to walk away from following the game's initial design and come out with very interesting restults in the end. Some would say leaving that doorway open is going to lead to 18+ content being authorized and such, and thus I believe that to allow this liberty to exist without taking risks, a filter could be applied, mods are flagged with tags, then the game could use those flags and players in-game could have an option tab where they decide which types of tags they want to see.
This way the game can have a fully unchained and shared modding scene without disrupting the pleasure and scope of creation. Of course I realize that such a system is most probably VERY complicated to have work, but I believe it is the best way things like this could be handled.

 

[Pandagnome]

What you propose here Omnires :



Is a system that is in place in Warframe, the Tennogen, where players are provided models and guidelines to propose design works to create new skins. What I was refering to, are more player made adjustements to what exists, to suit your desired look.
For example, a cool armor exists but it has THAT one tiny minuscule detail that just hurts your eyes and you want to change itIt is this kind of mod I was talking about. Or a paint pattern you think would fit better.

Of course your idea of a player based skin creation is a great idea, but I also noticed it takes a bit away from the creators freedom since they have to strictly fall within the guidelines. One aspect I appreciate of modding is that it can work to walk away from following the game's initial design and come out with very interesting restults in the end. Some would say leaving that doorway open is going to lead to 18+ content being authorized and such, and thus I believe that to allow this liberty to exist without taking risks, a filter could be applied, mods are flagged with tags, then the game could use those flags and players in-game could have an option tab where they decide which types of tags they want to see.
This way the game can have a fully unchained and shared modding scene without disrupting the pleasure and scope of creation. Of course I realize that such a system is most probably VERY complicated to have work, but I believe it is the best way things like this could be handled.

Warframe does it well however there are alot of times wish there could be some better looks no offense to what is created. it just does not appeal to my personal tastes of how i'd want my character to be so we are limited on that part in a way.

When you say giving more modding options and the chance that 18+ content is made this makes me wonder how will this game be sold in what rating bracket

- Lets say the game is rated for teens

-Some games have no blood and the enemy just vaporises when they are elminated
Some might have purple grape blood that is not red and such.

- The modding lets say have the filter for the different looks and effects could this raise the game maturity level?

- Would there be a parental control so that the account holder can save the filter profile slot limiting the use for those not suitable? E.g a younger sibling wants to play so the profile could be switched letting them play without having to experience the higher maturity content.


maybe i am just over thinking and like the possibilities of great looking customized looks and styles.

Sometimes i see some amazing looks unique styles that i wish were in games but they are generally concept art work.

Would this be a difficult feature to be added?

would it be something we could look at as the game progresses?

 

[cyriann#5305]

When you say giving more modding options and the chance that 18+ content is made this makes me wonder how will this game be sold in what rating bracket

- Lets say the game is rated for teens

-Some games have no blood and the enemy just vaporises when they are elminated
Some might have purple grape blood that is not red and such.

- The modding lets say have the filter for the different looks and effects could this raise the game maturity level?

- Would there be a parental control so that the account holder can save the filter profile slot limiting the use for those not suitable? E.g a younger sibling wants to play so the profile could be switched letting them play without having to experience the higher maturity content.


maybe i am just over thinking and like the possibilities of great looking customized looks and styles.

Sometimes i see some amazing looks unique styles that i wish were in games but they are generally concept art work.

Would this be a difficult feature to be added?

So I'll go over point per point, note that I have a fairly low level in game creation and all that, but I read and document myself so I hope to give a nice answer.

1- By default mods do NOT come into play regarding a game's rating. So the mod integration itself would be the part used to rate, with probably base placeholder items to showcase the function of tag based exclusion. Also, nothing would forbid making the unlocking of the "18+" related stuff a thing the player must do manually by defaulting those elements to hidden.

2-A parental control system could be in place, but by default it would be faulty as anyone who dabbles into gaming learns to lie and circumvent around such limitations.

3-You are not overthinking, the point of a discussion is just that. To think and propose as illogic or impossible as they might sound they can be soil for more possible options.

 

[Omnires]

Although Warframe is one example of such a system it was not what I was thinking about because it is to limiting. I was thinking back to old 2D MMOs and some early 3D MMOs. Back than a few games had editors built into them or on the main game site. For example, there would be an game model of a blink shirt in the editor and you have the power to adjust the size of the shirt (like long sleeves or short, long trunk or mid-drift), you also picked that is what made out of (cloth, leather, metal, or other materials), you picked what color it would be (also how light would effect it. Is it shiny or glows or mat.), you can layer things make it more dynamic, and you tag what layer of cloths it set to (is it skin layer/under wear or outer layer/over wear. That was a player can wear the shirt with something like a jacket over over it.). Think of how games give you a lot of freedom in the character creator but also allow that to cloths and other objects in the game backed with tools the devs made and support.

Warframe's Tennogen and Anthem's editor are kind of watered down versions of the oldshool editors as the devs wanted more control over the look and feel of the game. Because there are people who make silly things just to be silly. After all, it is kind of hate to take a level 80 demon slayer with flaming holy sword seriously if they are also wearing something that looks more at home is 4 year old girl's fairy princess themed birthday party. But I can see both sides of the debate on that topic so I don't talk about it unless one side crosses a line. Which kind of goes into the larger topics of what does freedom of speech really means, and what is the difference between good censorship and oppression. Topics that have far deeper meaning and far more reaching consequences than most people realize and actually think about in an unbiased way.

Anyway, back on topic. In some of those early MMOs the devs would release a simplified version of the tools they use to make characters and objects in the game. Players was free to do with it what they wanted and share those things on forums. But if they actually wanted those things in the game it ether had to follow the guidelines of the dev team put in place to be placed under consideration or used an add-on that would only effect how your game looks and no one else (as long as the add-on was not allowing people to cheat some devs didn't care if some of the files was edited. Even if you look super kickass on your screen to everyone else you are still wearing normal gear.). Going the official rout might take longer and need you jump a few loops, but in the end it is available to everyone without the need for a mod taking up extra space on your PC. And for some people who have lower in PCs or share their PC with family space can be limiting factor.

 

[cyriann#5305]

In some of those early MMOs the devs would release a simplified version of the tools they use to make characters and objects in the game. Players was free to do with it what they wanted and share those things on forums. But if they actually wanted those things in the game it ether had to follow the guidelines of the dev team put in place to be placed under consideration or used an add-on that would only effect how your game looks and no one else (as long as the add-on was not allowing people to cheat some devs didn't care if some of the files was edited. Even if you look super kickass on your screen to everyone else you are still wearing normal gear.). Going the official rout might take longer and need you jump a few loops, but in the end it is available to everyone without the need for a mod taking up extra space on your PC. And for some people who have lower in PCs or share their PC with family space can be limiting factor.

And once again a great point.

The possibility of the mods being client sided is also important, though I believe the option of sharing and seeing others using this type of content is a certain pleasure and fun. Of course it is not easy. and I proposed an idea just above your post and I'd like your opininon on it.