Representation in games and how it can effect players

EvilKitten · Jun 5, 2019

I love discussion, I love brainstorming, I love Em-8er!

...but...

I feel it is important to keep the subject matter in mind while conducting said discussions. Wild or overly large suggestions that have no chance of being implemented dilutes solid topics down and forces Grummz and gang to spend time sifting through for useful ideas (assuming it happens at all). I simply want people to be mindful of this when they are putting together idea's.

I also wish to remind people that no matter how much you love Em-8er, this isn't our game. There is no "voting" nor does "everyone involved" matter because this isn't a democracy. The only final decision on what is or is not going to be in Em-8er is Grummz. All the brainstorming in the world doesn't change that.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand.

I see a few suggestions above about props that players could use for their own characters. What other sorts of props would people like to see. I should also mention that if the idea can be monetized with prop packs I suspect Grummz would be amenable to such a thing

Some additional prop suggestions of my own: Cybernetic hands, an eye patch, an ocular implant (viva la borg!) a force field arm like was used in Knights of the Old Republic 2

In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.

Maven · Jun 6, 2019

EvilKitten said:

I wouldn't completely agree with these statements here. The forum is a place for open discussion and throwing ideas about, no matter how wild, outlandish or cumbersome they may be. While the topic at hand is controversial and likely something that will not get a look in, it has led to a lot of interaction and discussion between members, which is exactly what a forum is meant for.

'Useful' is a relative term, what seems useful to me may not seem so for others. It is only once the idea comes out in the open that dialogue and discussion happen. When the idea is put to the open public, you get different viewpoints, which eventually gives a measure of how interesting, viable, or useful said idea is. Ideas are not 'useless' per se, the effort necessary to implement them is what often decides their viability.

EvilKitten said:

And yet, this is a more involved process than most other games out there. Do remember that several features that are planned for the game have indeed come from the community itself. Additionally, the community have been asked their opinion on significant ideas from Grummz himself. While the final decision is indeed Grummz's, it does not immediately exclude any discussion or brainstorming within the community. Grummz has shown that he is happy to take community ideas (if viable) and opinion, on board for the game. That wouldn't have happened if the community were to 'play it safe'.

Pandagnome · Jun 6, 2019

EvilKitten said:

Me too!

EvilKitten said:

Not that it is an essay the topic is representation and feel justified for putting the points across.

Appreciate the mindfulness, Many of us are excited by Em8er myself also and the forum to me is the bridge to communicate, share ideas to all here including the dev's vice versa.

EvilKitten said:

Yes and no what i mean is even though its not officially our game that we own, it is our game in the sense that we the community are supporting the development and an important part of the process.

EvilKitten said:

Cybernetic hands would look great i wonder if giving high 5's to others with cybernetic hands makes a cool effect you know when they do the fist bump and explosion thing but with a high 5 it turns the high 5 to a lightening strike on impact when the high 5 occurs

Props i like are mainly

Masks or actual full head pieces that could look like a dog, cat, panda, fish, kaiju, television head etc etc

Belts with little detail for example medics have a holographic cross on the front in a circle can be toggled on or off.

Backpacks to look like real explorers some look futuristic and other styles could be more traditional etc

Retro space pistols that shoot bubbles and make pop sound good to use in the social area for parties and fun time

Boots and other accessories that link up with chroma sync fashion say you have stompy snow boots and visor every time you move the visor lights up too or can have an option for various light pattern sequence.

etc etc etc

Omnires · Jun 6, 2019

When I started this thread it was never with the idea of changing the game, but just to have an open discussion with an healthy exchange of ideas and view points. Because the more perspectives we have in topics like this the better. And throwing out ideas, even ones that my never work in this game, could spark an idea within someone else to build on that idea for something new. Or to call to attention some hidden problem others might not have thought of or even from their perspective helping everyone avoid a pitfall. Some times just the act of making people aware of things and getting them to put some thought into it is all that is needed. Plus like in the first video I posted about accessibility, just because something is designed with the idea to help those with an disability doesn't mean people without the disability can't also benefit from it. Like how the crosswalks with the special tiles on them help blind people to know where to cross because of the texture of the sidewalk in that area, also helps to stop people from slipping in the rain when going up and down the slops. And likewise the sounds the light makes that tells you when to walk and when to wait don't just help the blind but anyone who for seem reason can't clearly see the signs or are otherwise to distracted to notice the lights changes (I can't tell you how many times walking to or from school in a half sleep state or when I was sick that the sound from the lights helped me. Not counting all the people who I seen crossing the street without ever looking up from their cellphones.). Even if none of the ideas we explore in this thread are ever used in this game that still doesn't make them useless, as who knows some of them can be used in another game.

Anyway, on the topic of things like cloths and armor. There are lots of cloths and armor that have no sleeves and legs. Not everyone goes about their daily lives wearing long sleeves and pants. Some of it is cultural, some of it is environmental (it is to hot or you work at job where there is a risk of injury if your cloths get caught on the hazards), and some of it is just person's own sense of style or comfort. And this not even counting asymmetrical cloths and armor. So the idea that clothing and armor is going to be something that stops a dev from having a player character with a missing arm and/or leg doesn't make much sense to me unless all the cloths and armor in the game are long sleeves and pants made out of hard and rigid material. Otherwise they could leave the cloths the same have just add cloth physics to everything that needs it (looks at games like Warframe and how cloth physics plays a role in not only how thinks look but also in how you might feel about something. And how many people are willing to pay money for a good cape or tassels for their weapons.) I don't see it as a problem that would stop development or cost to much money to do because it is something that pays for itself as seen in other games.

Also, where whether or not a game makes having people with disabilities in their game a thing, I still feel that they need to explain themselves as to why. Even if it is just something in the lore about how do to the technology or magic no one is born with a disability and people can just regrow body parts that are damaged or lost. As long as it makes sense for the game's lore as to why some people would not exist in the game and it is a good reason than I'm all for it. But this a war game so people are going to get injured all the time, what would be the lore reasons why there is no disabled people? Nanotechology, genmanipulation, cloning the body and downloading your mind into that new body, super high tech realistic looking prosthetics that the government gives out for free? What is the reason, and what happens to the people who reject such ideas as part of their culture or personal views. After all, there are some people who reject things like blood transfusions because of their cultural beliefs. Because remember to some people good game lore is just as important as good game play, and it is the lore that keeps them coming back for more even long after the game play starts to feel repetitive to them.

I'm on the side of things that say if you go about things the right way it will not add to the time and cost of game development because all it takes is just a small change or adding flags here and there. Or just putting more thought into the game's lore as to give valid reasons as to why things are the way that they are.

Also on the topic of blind characters I think it is a good idea if you have them relay on the use of sound and vibrations more. Because even if you can't see or hear something moving around, you can still sometimes feel it moving around through the ground or walls, anything you are touching that can transfer vibrations from one place to another. I don't always need to see and hear a truck to know one is coming because I can feel the ground moving and sense where the movement is coming from.

Pandagnome · Jun 6, 2019

Omnires said:

Good list there it could be for several reasons just like for those who reject it too

Omnires said:

I would say also the bug fixes and updates including the lore

EvilKitten · Jun 6, 2019

Omnires said:

Maybe I have it wrong but my understanding was that in Em-8er we are flash cloned or some such.

Omnires said:

Pretty sure if you get killed and reject the idea of being cloned then...er you'd be dead? Great way to weed out the naysayers!

I also had the idea for a monetized cane prop, it would need to be monetized because someone would have to create special walking animations. Also while the prop is equipped, running/sprinting would be disabled. There could actually be several cane variations, the more expensive versions would have some extra animations where you can shake your cane at people.

Sy · Jun 6, 2019

Omnires said:

Okay.

Pandagnome · Jun 6, 2019

EvilKitten said:

There could be an extendable cane when you want to poke someone and a candy cane for xmas
when you just want to hang around a xmas tree.

Chroma canes for cane fights just like light sabers!

Omnires · Jun 6, 2019

EvilKitten said:

I thought they was part of a group who rejected things like body augmentation and that is why they used omniframes the use a biofeedback system to operate rather than something like a cybernetic or mind linked. And is also why you wouldn't see people using generic engineering to do things like grow into giants and go all Hulk smash on the enemies. It is something about their culture that stops them from doing such things but was never really explained in any detail. Which tells me that their culture falls a bit more onto the naturalists side of things. Where they have the technology and science to do those things but refuse to do so for reasons. The question is how far does that mindset goes and does it extend to people with disabilities?

Because going by what culture they do have you can in up with some really interesting characters that are totally normal for their culture but not so much for our culture. Like the Scotsman from Samurai Jack who walks around with a working machinegun for a prosthetic leg and it is totally normal for that would.

Pandagnome · Jun 7, 2019

Omnires said:

Ah yes and if they are in area's where omniframes are not available/restricted could there be Smaller exoskeletons to get in like an iron man suit hmm.

Omnires said:

Perhaps our big hulk is our Omniframes and who knows maybe the genetic engineering/manipulation was done before and resulted in failed attempts to make super soldiers so the Omniframe was the best solution is my guess.

Omnires said:

The Scotsman uses a machinegun leg rather than a standard prosthetic I am sure there is a reason perhaps he had an accident or it was from a war injury and the gun is sentimental to him that was passed on.

So he uses it as a weapon and a way to move quicker by shooting more to give a nice kick back or maybe he taking up ballet and shoot while spinning shrugs.

Maven · Jun 7, 2019

Omnires said:

There is something of a reasonable explanation provided as to why the Gatestriders do not resort to genetic modifications. Their home planet had vastly varying conditions which made opting for genetic modifications impractical. Also an additional case can be made for their very nature. They are wanderers and explorers by trade. This would take them to worlds with a wide range of conditions. Thus, settling on, or opting for, a particular modification to suit particular conditions was not a viable option.

From Lore Drop #1:

https://forums.em8er.com/threads/em-8er-lore-drop-transcriptions.1392/

Omnires · Jun 8, 2019

Maven said:

Thanks. I knew they was from a naturalist culture but couldn't remember where I got that from. And although this lore does give a good reason as to why they are a naturalist culture it doesn't really tell us exactly to what degree. Like are people with disabilities who learn how to overcome them, and/or turn them into a strength, and/or can still succeed despite them are looked at in a different light than others? For example, are people who reject the use of prosthetics and/or medications to still lead normal functioning lives with success are viewed as normal or outliers? Because if they are viewed as normal than their culture places a higher value on things like perseverance in the face of adversity and not letting what others view as a shortcoming or flaw define you and limit you. But if they are viewed as outliers than it means that it is something that is not common in their culture and their has to be reasons as to why. Getting more lore about what their culture views and how it runs will be a big step into knowing who is seen as "normal" to them and who are not. And help to give a range of what kind of people we are likely to see within that culture. After all, we know people genetic engineering treats are going to be rare in that culture but that doesn't mean they don't exist as they would be the outliers who choice to live in one place and adapt to it.

Pandagnome · Jun 9, 2019

Omnires said:

Lets say there are some who have witnessed/experienced the harsh reality of tech augments, genetic alterations and so on. They fear that changing our natural way defeats the purpose of being true human that could turn them into walking killing machines with lack of emotions or add more problems/complications than is deemed necessary.

Perhaps you could see them moving using mobile exosuits or hover chairs like professor X uses in X-men.

Also use of visual holographic limbs to show which is missing.

Then there are those with successful implants, augments etc they feel that it helps with their survival, and their way of life to do the things they want to do.

Prosthetic/tech and social

+ could repair individual areas
- Could be hacked and cause problems

+ Repairing parts quicker
+ Able to see areas without invasive measures
- Could take more resource and funding
- Not funded by government
- What are the long term effects?

+ Sockets comfort
- May not be as efficient as direct Ostheo-intergration
- May not be as securely fitted and could come undone under tougher activities

Just like how there are different people with different lifestyles and those with and without disabilities
all are people.

Perhaps Privilege could be a reason as to why certain characters may not have things or look a certain way in their appearance etc

Omnires · Jun 11, 2019

Plus there is also things like this where most medical is only focused on one small group in the population.

Krighton · Jun 11, 2019

If there is a single DROP of politics, virtue signaling, or liberal storyline I will quit before it starts.

Posts like the one OP made shouldn't be allowed. There is no need, will never be a need for this in a game. Ever.

it's a game. Let's hope this is the end of that.

Omnires · Jun 11, 2019

Krighton said:

Games, like any media, only grow better when you have more kinds of stories you can tell and from different prospectives. Otherwise all books, movies, and games would all be the same with the same story and prospective. Putting a light on something and asking why or what if is always the start of something new.

As for politics and that other stuff you are talking about. No one here is even talking about that stuff outside of the politics of the game's lore itself and what that could mean as greater whole for the game itself. No one is asking for the game to be changed or turned into something it is not.

But if you want a game to reach and be enjoyed by the most people possible you also have to take into account how other people view the world and how it might effect them. Accessibility and representation matters in all games whether or not people are aware of it. After all, how many people didn't play a game because there was no sub-titles or color blind options, or stopped playing at the character creation screen because of things being gender-locked and/or race-locked. People who might have otherwise loved that game if only there was bit more accessibility or representation options. All media has a message they want to share, even games, and if you want to reach the most people possible and make the most money possible you have to be really mindful of what that media is says be it attentional or not.

Pandagnome · Jun 12, 2019

Omnires said:

I am going to have to say representing race all good having a story e.g. they escaped earth bla bla sounds good too.

Now with the story of a targeted group hmm could this be instead for work

Lets say the Miners and builders were seen as the major players for the success living in Em8er.
The other workers were overlooked and many assumed the safe job was to work in that field.

When individuals became ill from strange symptoms from contact by strange plants or even kaiju's
the medical staff ratio was short and that left a big gap in the system. So they had to build there medical facilities and numbers to understand and prevent that from happening again.

Later on as time went on pilots really appreciate the variety of jobs there were each complimenting another it started off a small community and built to a population that live in floating cities!

zdoofop · Jun 12, 2019

Omnires said:

but that is literally what you are doing, representation and "equality" are leftist values, and are by their very nature political.

I'm not saying there sholdn't be NPCs of other races, or that the character creation should be race locked, but when we start getting into gender specifics, we have a problem. Whether you go with your biology or not, people generally stick with one or the other. Those that don't can switch back and forth at will like you could do in firefall. Those very few that don't want to choose shoud remember that their character is the omniframe, not the pilot. The pilot is an accessory. This is according to Grummz, not me. If you really must, get a geesuit that covers your entire body. We don't really need a character creation that says "I was a man but now I'm a woman". If you identify as a woman, just pick the female in character creation.

I thought the Em8er community was above this. I guess not.

Omnires · Jun 12, 2019

Pandagnome said:

And I can see few different story lines popping up from things like this. Like how some NPCs might distrust or even hate the government because they feel like they are not doing enough to help and/or protect them over helping the group they deemed to be of more value. Different human factions that are still friendly but have different goals and ideals that could be opposed to each other.

Or just running across random NPCs the love you or hate you just because you are gate strider. With the ones that hate you for being one having valid reasons, like because so many resources are focused towards the war and striders that other parts of the population are starting to suffer because of it. People being forced to make do without because the war effect needs it. Showing hints of the negative consequences that war has even on the people who are nowhere near the front lines. After all, I think we can all understand why a parent might be upset if they can't get treatment for their sick child because so many resources are being funneled elsewhere.

There are so many lore options and NPC types you can use to explore ideas like this.

zdoofop said:

I have no idea what you are talking about. This thread has and still is about the representation of people with disabilities, both physical and mental, and how the game could use both mechanics and lore to explain why the player characters and NPCs are they way that they are. I don't know how you jumped from a topic about people with disabilities to a talk about gender, unless you only read the title of the thread and jump to conclusions about what it means.

Pandagnome · Jun 12, 2019

Did not realize about some characters, guess if you could style to be more feminine or masculine would it matter less if the label was male or female perhaps the label could be changed so where it says male or female after you have selected could go to options either blanking label or select from the other choices just a thought

Representation in games and how it can effect players

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