Tinkering and Durability

[TankHunter678]

I got to talking about Tinkering in the discord chat and during the discussion a interesting idea popped up from @LunaCee the idea (well after it evolved a bit over the discussion) is this:

Gear in general does not suffer from durability loss.

However by using a Tinkering system you can "break the warranty" and make the piece of gear exceed recommended specifications at a cost.

The more you push a piece of gear beyond its specifications, the faster the durability drops and the sooner it will degrade to a point where you really should just go replace the component parts or the entire piece.

Effectively you can "overclock" for more power, but you have to accept that you are going to have to do far more work to maintain that. Durability loss would only happen for those who consciously choose to have it. Power at a price.

 

[Wintersiege]

Sounds like a nice way to make it work for the guys that like durability loss and those that abbhor it.

 

[Ronyn]

Three things-
1: Why are we looking for ways to create a primary gear durability system? The current direction is aimed at that kind of thing on supplemental items/gear/objects/buildings. That solves the economic needs.
2: In a game with a horizontal progression system, wouldn't a way to make something more powerful go against it?
2: Power is a common motivation for players. If there is a way to gain it by accepting a certain mechanic...the many players who don't like that mechanic will feel as though they are being punished.

 

[LunaCee]

Basically highly specialized equipment is likely to not be over-clocked. If you need specific gear to use your preferred passives to full effectiveness you would want it to be around all the time.

The flip side is this also promotes some market turn-over on very basic gear. Burn-down weapons that are purely about DPS but don't support extra frills. So you could have that lovely elemental gun that lets you slow stuff and proc a useful passive. And then there is the other gun you have around for a week at a time and is commonly replaced where you just use it as a dispensable bullet hose when the only thing you care about is raw DPS.

Same thing goes for abilities and things like jump jets. The only real thing is there has to be a hard enforced ceiling to things like this. Constraints need to be in play so that while the overclock is possible, you can't overclock *everything*.

 

[taiiat]

if it's like 'Overclocking' i don't think durability is actually a punishment then. simply an upkeep cost for your specialization.
to be clear i have no intentions of an item being able to be fully destroyed.

but if say, you focused your specialization on 4x the normal Rate of Fire or something, you'd have your personal hilarious Weapon, and it would sink some resources to get that benefit.

assuredly some sort of upper limits so you don't make cheese Equipment, able to increase on stat to a fairly high amount, two to 40-60% of that, 3 to 40-60% of the previous, Et Cetera.
and if you go even further, allowing people to 'Underclock stats' to give negatives, those can be used to help balance out your upkeep costs.


basically, i feel this is excellent because it gives a game an excuse to let Players have that ridiculous "literally Dakka.jpg" Weapon or "so many bullets i can't even see" or "blow s... up with nukes", Et Cetera.
things that normally would destroy balance in a game and you couldn't have, you can have.

so i don't see this as vertical upgrades, but specialization, and costs associated with it.

 

[Nakiato]

Three things-
1: Why are we looking for ways to create a primary gear durability system? The current direction is aimed at that kind of thing on supplemental items/gear/objects/buildings. That solves the economic needs.
2: In a game with a horizontal progression system, wouldn't a way to make something more powerful go against it?
2: Power is a common motivation for players. If there is a way to gain it by accepting a certain mechanic...the many players who don't like that mechanic will feel as though they are being punished.

Im with this guy. Durability was not a system that went over well with the community last time. I know you're saying gear won't break per se, but it is punishing players in a sense.

 

[Angel McWalsoft]

Tinkering system you can "break the warranty" and make the piece of gear exceed recommended specifications at a cost.

I am all for busting up some warranty, for increased usefulness. "overclocking" you AR15 is not recommended, neither is loading "Dragons Breath" rounds in your shotgun. Too many DB rounds too close together will warp your barrel. They are fun to play with. I guess the point I am trying to make is, I agree if you are going to do risky shit with your kit you should have to pay to maintain your current configuration, with the "warranty voided." However, what about using the tool for it's intended purpose? How many belts can you run threw a Ma Deuce, before you need to swap barrels?
To be clear, I do not like Durability. I do however agree that there should be a higher "maintenance cost" associated with "voided warranties."

 

[Ronyn]

Current official information on the subject of durability is "

• Durability: Items will not break, but will need to be repaired (at less resource cost than what it was to make).

"
As long as we stay within those perimeters I am open to all sorts of ideas like overclocking and increased costs for risky builds. However, as soon as it goes to the point where player gear can be permanently broken, I feel it has gotten out of hand.

Also for the goal of retaining the clear focus on horizontal progression, another clearly stated design goal, it is imperative that any capability to raise a single weapon or stat to uncommonly high state will have to be offfset with some other weapon,ability or stat of the character dropping below the normal low point. Otherwise we are talking about vertical progression no if's ands, or buts.

 

[avalon1k]

No gear breakage per se. Unless you let it wear completely out by not repairing it.

 

[taiiat]

Also for the goal of retaining the clear focus on horizontal progression, another clearly stated design goal, it is imperative that any capability to raise a single weapon or stat to uncommonly high state will have to be offfset with some other weapon,ability or stat of the character dropping below the normal low point. Otherwise we are talking about vertical progression no if's ands, or buts.

go nuts. take and give is totally fine with me.

it's the big part of why i'm excited for Popup Dungeon - you can make crazy cool things, and (in theory ofcourse, balance is tricky) the game will make sure you stay within what's considered balanced. while giving lots of ways to specialize or generalize to fit whatever is you.
see also:

 

[TankHunter678]

I am all for busting up some warranty, for increased usefulness. "overclocking" you AR15 is not recommended, neither is loading "Dragons Breath" rounds in your shotgun. Too many DB rounds too close together will warp your barrel. They are fun to play with. I guess the point I am trying to make is, I agree if you are going to do risky shit with your kit you should have to pay to maintain your current configuration, with the "warranty voided." However, what about using the tool for it's intended purpose? How many belts can you run threw a Ma Deuce, before you need to swap barrels?
To be clear, I do not like Durability. I do however agree that there should be a higher "maintenance cost" associated with "voided warranties."

Under the idea being discussed, using the gear within its intended purpose/factory configuration would not incur durability loss.

Thematically you could say that the materials used in the gear are so good that using it at the base output it was made for the thing will outlive you before wear and tear would result in you needing to replace a part.

Which of course would cause power seekers and crazy people to go "Well... how much more oomph can I get out of it before it really starts to wear down?"

Also to be clear, I do not like durability either. Especially in most games where it feels like its like having durability for the sake of durability with how much "effect" it has on your resources.