The biggest mistake was trying to take PVE equipment into the PvP side of the game. The second biggest mistake was making PvP'r PvE'r interact. These two groups do not get alone all that well. PvE hate fighting over players and PvP players want a challenge. You should be able to get all the PvP equipment by playing PvP and then a second option to use PvE resources to get a jump start at PvP progression. This way if you want to move into PvP you feel better about it being a PvE player. The other thing is you don't force PvP players to grind through content they don't want to.
Likes:
DARKB1KE and NitroMidgets
There was also a larger group who came to FireFall completely fresh, didn't like it, and suggested it be more like <insert popular game>, and of course a lot of those players were from things like COD or WoW. Some ideas are worth copying, because they might actually improve the game, but the developers should never be afraid to say "That's not the kind of game we're making".
I think Warframe had a great idea with their design council, formed of founders who payed for the largest package, as well as notable community members like youtubers and twitch streamers. Same goes for Eve Online, with its CSM, who are player representatives voted for by the entire playerbase, to raise concerns with developers and preview upcoming ideas before they go too far to be changed.
I think Warframe had a great idea with their design council, formed of founders who payed for the largest package, as well as notable community members like youtubers and twitch streamers. Same goes for Eve Online, with its CSM, who are player representatives voted for by the entire playerbase, to raise concerns with developers and preview upcoming ideas before they go too far to be changed.
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NitroMidgets
Agreed. It is good to share ideas but you have to stick to that core design concept.
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Ronyn and NitroMidgets
You make some very valid points and interesting suggestions. I agree 4bone support is not likely to happen for the MMO industry.
Maybe when IPv6 becomes more available, MMOs could implement IPv6 in a "mesh P2P" fashion. So, the server wouldn't need to be the middle man for player data to/from other players -- they could exchange it between themselves. Since IPv6 addresses are public, firewalls become less of a concern (except for personal ones). Just a thought. I always wished Firefall supported IPv6, but they did not. The UI itself was single stacked. Even while using a NAT64 device, I could not get FF to connect using IPv6.
Maybe when IPv6 becomes more available, MMOs could implement IPv6 in a "mesh P2P" fashion. So, the server wouldn't need to be the middle man for player data to/from other players -- they could exchange it between themselves. Since IPv6 addresses are public, firewalls become less of a concern (except for personal ones). Just a thought. I always wished Firefall supported IPv6, but they did not. The UI itself was single stacked. Even while using a NAT64 device, I could not get FF to connect using IPv6.
What I want to see... The whole sandbox building idea Kern described, resource collection, logistics, having to defend resource convoys, building refineries and factories and fortifications...
What I absolutely don't want to see: Kern's successor's BS EvE style economy attempts. In fact, I don't want to see anything that resembles EvE in the slightest thanks.
I want to see players working together to build things and repel the NPC threat, I don't want to see players fighting each other to take control of stuff for their guild or org or whatever.
I want to see the sort of gameplay we saw in that first demo video of Firefall back in the day, going out and mining, guarding the thumper, heading back in to town and buying stuff... I don't want to see there being 200 different kinds of resources and quality levels and crap overcomplicating the crafting system like it had devolved into by the time I finally ragequit the "beta" (I put that in quotes because they were taking my damn money at the time and still claiming it was a "just a beta").
I can't even remember all the changes that started happening that led me to finally quitting the game. I do remember they started happening after Mark Kern was pushed out, which makes me rather suspicious of the claims the team made about him after he left.
I remember the changes to crafting, limiting people to doing one type of crafting in some asinine attempt to force us to have a player-driven economy... That was a big one for me, especially given the whole system they created was half-assed, intrusive, and frustrating. I remember the straw that finally broke the camel's back for me was when they completely gutted my turret-focused engineer because of people complaining that it was too static, when the whole design intent for that specific engineer type had been that they build up a static defensive emplacement... Might sound like a small thing but they'd put so much grind into the game, and that class was the *one* thing I'd fully maxed out, which was a huge investment of time.
Actually that's something I'd like to see in any Firefall successor... Something equivalent to that design, a class that is focused on constructing and maintaining fortifications.
What I absolutely don't want to see: Kern's successor's BS EvE style economy attempts. In fact, I don't want to see anything that resembles EvE in the slightest thanks.
I want to see players working together to build things and repel the NPC threat, I don't want to see players fighting each other to take control of stuff for their guild or org or whatever.
I want to see the sort of gameplay we saw in that first demo video of Firefall back in the day, going out and mining, guarding the thumper, heading back in to town and buying stuff... I don't want to see there being 200 different kinds of resources and quality levels and crap overcomplicating the crafting system like it had devolved into by the time I finally ragequit the "beta" (I put that in quotes because they were taking my damn money at the time and still claiming it was a "just a beta").
I can't even remember all the changes that started happening that led me to finally quitting the game. I do remember they started happening after Mark Kern was pushed out, which makes me rather suspicious of the claims the team made about him after he left.
I remember the changes to crafting, limiting people to doing one type of crafting in some asinine attempt to force us to have a player-driven economy... That was a big one for me, especially given the whole system they created was half-assed, intrusive, and frustrating. I remember the straw that finally broke the camel's back for me was when they completely gutted my turret-focused engineer because of people complaining that it was too static, when the whole design intent for that specific engineer type had been that they build up a static defensive emplacement... Might sound like a small thing but they'd put so much grind into the game, and that class was the *one* thing I'd fully maxed out, which was a huge investment of time.
Actually that's something I'd like to see in any Firefall successor... Something equivalent to that design, a class that is focused on constructing and maintaining fortifications.
Not a lot here have ever played Neocron , but its PvP is the funnest I've ever had in a game. You actually PvPed to control the outposts , factories, etc. It made the world PvP matter. Take a Factory? Get a huge construction (crafting) bonus. Take an uplink, hack outposts faster. Take an outpost? Get bonuses to combat in that "area". Its really the only way to make world PvP relevant other than giving gear (yawn).
In a true sandbox , its ALWAYS merged. Battlegrounds Arenas have no place in a sandbox game. I guess I can kinda see the point for not merging the crafting elements into it. So , sure remove that. Outpost wars aren't PvE events... so things like better combat stats and what not wouldn't apply there, but yea I can see that about the factory / construction bonus that Neocron had.
Arenas can exist, however they should be instanced, otherwise crafting will have a play in the outcome of PVP. Wars for outposts would be between the players and the opposing NPC faction. Firefall was destroyed by balancing PVP for PVE and vice-versa. They cannot have any interconnect here. If frames must be completely different between PVP and PVE, so be it.
Bonuses should be given to players based on whether or not we or the NPC enemy control outposts. As we upgrade those outposts, bonuses should get larger, but the efforts of the enemy should be more threatening as we upgrade it. Everyone should be able to participate in and benefit from the upgrades, however people who directly participate in the upgrade process should be rewarded for such. Additionally, the NPC faction should receive bonuses for taking outposts as well.
If we have battles for outposts between player factions, yes, that might make it interesting, but I don't want this to become something akin to Planetside 2(the only analogy I have, sorry) with a fourth, NPC faction in the mix.
I am slightly biased-if I had my way, there would be no PVP at ALL. I'm willing to compromise, but I don't think that PVP should be involved in the PVE world unless it is in explicitly stated Sunken Harbor-esque arenas(Like Firefall had) where it is explicitly stated that they are PVP zones and where no rewards are given for it.
Bonuses should be given to players based on whether or not we or the NPC enemy control outposts. As we upgrade those outposts, bonuses should get larger, but the efforts of the enemy should be more threatening as we upgrade it. Everyone should be able to participate in and benefit from the upgrades, however people who directly participate in the upgrade process should be rewarded for such. Additionally, the NPC faction should receive bonuses for taking outposts as well.
If we have battles for outposts between player factions, yes, that might make it interesting, but I don't want this to become something akin to Planetside 2(the only analogy I have, sorry) with a fourth, NPC faction in the mix.
I am slightly biased-if I had my way, there would be no PVP at ALL. I'm willing to compromise, but I don't think that PVP should be involved in the PVE world unless it is in explicitly stated Sunken Harbor-esque arenas(Like Firefall had) where it is explicitly stated that they are PVP zones and where no rewards are given for it.
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NitroMidgets
This time around, when you have testing do it for a week at a time for starters. Then at the end of the week send out a survey to the email address of those who took part. Also send another version to those who had access but did not play. Find out what they liked and didn't. Find out why those with access opted to no longer take part.
It killed me that this type of thing wasn't done with Firefall. So much wasted time, money and staff hours on things that were driving people away.
When people stop playing, that is feedback. The only way to learn from it is to ask why.
Then use those things in a podcast or Sticky Thread. When we would see feedback it felt like they were cherry picking only what they wanted to hear. You can't have valid feedback in an Echo Chamber.
It killed me that this type of thing wasn't done with Firefall. So much wasted time, money and staff hours on things that were driving people away.
When people stop playing, that is feedback. The only way to learn from it is to ask why.
Then use those things in a podcast or Sticky Thread. When we would see feedback it felt like they were cherry picking only what they wanted to hear. You can't have valid feedback in an Echo Chamber.
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AdmiralStryker
I would see some alternative movement types, like wall jumps, higher jumps from higher speeds, some athletic elements combined with shooting. I think it would be much more fun to play than just jetpacks. 2nd thing i would see much more detailed character models with no textures clipping ;P
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NitroMidgets
I hate crafting as a barrier, so I'd like to emphasize that crafting in any form has to be for the sake of adding options, not removing them.
In other words: Don't make them a gate for higher players to require grinding to make upgrade their favourite weapon, and don't make cool weapons require resources to grind for. Make each component have a tangible effect that shifts its power sideways (+damage -accuracy, or -spread -fire rate, or 5% chance to halve or double damage) rather than to make it scale with current enemy power. Make weapons scale automatically or through EXP, anything but grinding for an upgrade.
I also didn't really enjoy having to rely on the market, make it a completely viable option to play and make weapons as you go.
In other words: Don't make them a gate for higher players to require grinding to make upgrade their favourite weapon, and don't make cool weapons require resources to grind for. Make each component have a tangible effect that shifts its power sideways (+damage -accuracy, or -spread -fire rate, or 5% chance to halve or double damage) rather than to make it scale with current enemy power. Make weapons scale automatically or through EXP, anything but grinding for an upgrade.
I also didn't really enjoy having to rely on the market, make it a completely viable option to play and make weapons as you go.
Ideally, you can either get weapons from combat(purchasing from NPCs, drops, salvaging enemy tech, rewards, etc.), or from crafting. Either way, no way to get weapons should be better than another. It should be perfectly viable to buy/sell resources/weapons to play the game or to shoot your way to better equipment.
EDIT: You shouldn't have to craft to modify weapons, either. The enemy faction should mirror us in a way, and they should drop modifications that can be used on our weapons, whether aesthetic(a paint job, a different scope reticle) or gameplay affecting(a barrel that increases damage at the cost of accuracy, a clip that increases ammo at the cost of reload time, etc).
EDIT: You shouldn't have to craft to modify weapons, either. The enemy faction should mirror us in a way, and they should drop modifications that can be used on our weapons, whether aesthetic(a paint job, a different scope reticle) or gameplay affecting(a barrel that increases damage at the cost of accuracy, a clip that increases ammo at the cost of reload time, etc).
I don't believe the game should have open world PvP. It's not part of the original design idea Kern posted. The game is said to be a co-op war against AI. No mention of it being PvP faction war.
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AdmiralStryker and Yrkul