Some of the Top things that pushed me out of FF

[ToorimaKun]

Do you mean durability of any kind?

pretty much, in this kind of game when you die you want to get RIGHT back in to the action, not go to town to repair and come back to find that the event is over already.

this game is very fast passed and any durability linked with combat is just not really going to work.
I think people are forgetting this is an MMO not a single player be maxed out in 2 weeks game.
If the crafting system is made right and the rarity of quality resources are done right then people will be always trying to improve their gear for quite some time.

also the implementation of consumable items
and im sure the higher tier player base improvements will cost quite a bit as well.

 

[Ronyn]

For me what turned me away was the following.
Durability: This is not true, its mainly just for you Ronyn

. So youre saying that you were personally fine with the durability to the point of permanent breakage on firefall?

pretty much, in this kind of game when you die you want to get RIGHT back in to the action, not go to town to repair and come back to find that the event is over already.

this game is very fast passed and any durability linked with combat is just not really going to work.

Interesting. If the concern is a repair system taking up valuable time, that could potentially be addressed. In some games, the repair system does not require that the player goes back to town. Or the place you respawn is the same place you can repair yourself. In either case, the repair system doesn't add any additional trips to town. Moreover, the time it takes to repair is sometimes minimal.

I think people are forgetting this is an MMO not a single player be maxed out in 2 weeks game.

Em-8ER is not a single player game but it is also not an MMO. How long it would take to reach maximum progression in Em-8ER is hard to speculate on at this time.

 

[ToorimaKun]

Interesting. If the concern is a repair system taking up valuable time, that could potentially be addressed. In some games, the repair system does not require that the player goes back to town. Or the place you respawn is the same place you can repair yourself. In either case, the repair system doesn't add any additional trips to town. Moreover, the time it takes to repair is sometimes minimal.

Hmmmm...... suppose you could have a single button repair when you are near a spawn point with out the need to open any kind of interface.... but still kinda would seem like you are getting punished for dying.

in an RPG you have a tank (and some times an off tank) for taking all the damage for your party.... so if you die it is usually because you were a dumb ass and tried to show how much DPS you can do and stole agro from the tank.
in an action based game such as FireFall you don't have the tank to keep the damage off you... so you are always slowly dying.

Em-8ER is not a single player game but it is also not an MMO. How long it would take to reach maximum progression in Em-8ER is hard to speculate on at this time.

Hmmm... is this going to be like Path of Exile where you take your party in to an instanced area?

 

[Ashreon]

ing. If the concern is a repair system taking up valuable time, that could potentially be addressed. In some games, the repair system does not require that the player goes back to town. Or the place you respawn is the same place you can repair yourself. In either case, the repair system doesn't add any additional trips to town. Moreover, the time it takes to repair is sometimes minimal.

Let's be frank, in such games - you repair BEFORE going off on an adventure and then you don't concern yourself with repairing until you see a yellow repair sign in which case most people swing by a repair NPC next in town. Your gear breaking in the middle of a fight, event, dungeon - that's entirely your own fault. You could have come prepared.

And to answer your question regarding death to gear: I'm neither for or against gear breaking to the point of no use. I was merely using an example to say - durability is very much key to having a proper economy . Whether it be through repairing with gathered materials/currency and/or an new crafted outfit as the old broke matters little to me - it's important that it is present.
- I come from games such as Darkfall.. Losing your gear was an every day hassle whether it breaks and I have spare sets or I can repair it and don't need spare sets - doesn't really matter the outcome is the same in the end .

pretty much, in this kind of game when you die you want to get RIGHT back in to the action, not go to town to repair and come back to find that the event is over already.

this game is very fast passed and any durability linked with combat is just not really going to work.
I think people are forgetting this is an MMO not a single player be maxed out in 2 weeks game.
If the crafting system is made right and the rarity of quality resources are done right then people will be always trying to improve their gear for quite some time.

also the implementation of consumable items
and im sure the higher tier player base improvements will cost quite a bit as well.

A) Get good, don't die.
B) Yes, durability will work. It does in all other games.
C) I have never heard of a game in which dying is not a punishment. If not time lost, then it's durability lost or in-game progress lost.. There are many ways of doing it. I mean for crying out loud.. You die..
D) You compare this to a theme park MMO. You cannot. There is no progression in a sandbox game as such you cannot be "maxed out" in 2 weeks.
E) No, people will only continue to improve so long as it's required of them. If you're maxed out in 2 weeks. You're not going to keep improving yourself if you don't have losses. Remember - this is supposedly a Horizontal game as such gear treadmills in which you constantly get better gear - most likely will only exist in a limited capacity and only up to a certain point at which all gear stops improving and new gear releases will not add more power to your character (GW2 has done this - quite successfully)

 

[Ronyn]

but still kinda would seem like you are getting punished for dying.

Yes, in a sense. You would prefer no punishment for dying?

in an action based game such as FireFall you don't have the tank to keep the damage off you... so you are always slowly dying.

This digs into two different subjects. I'll avoid getting into what role options there can be in an action game and instead focus on the end point. Try not to think of it as "always slowly dying", as you have every ability to prevent death when you play. In an action game, where skill matters, you can succeed in combat by skillful play, smart choices, and solid preparation.

Hmmm... is this going to be like Path of Exile where you take your party in to an instanced area?

We are still looking at open world like area's, it's just that we arent going with the standard designs one would expect from an MMO. Unlike an MMO our focus is on a persistent, simulated war. That is why we call Em-8ER a Massive Planetary Wargame not an MMOFPS.

-----------------------------------

Let's be frank, in such games....

...And to answer your question regarding death to gear: I'm neither for or against gear breaking to the point of no use.

Right on, I understood you correctly.

One of the things we are acutely aware of is that while we definitely want to build systems that are good for the economy, an economy is only good for the game as far as it improves the overall experience and doesn't hinder it. Being frank, repair systems can be quite painless or excessively intrusive depending on how they are designed and tuned to fit in with the rest of the systems and overall intended pace of the game. Some games get this right, some games get this wrong. Firefall's various economic models were controversial to say the least. So I don't blame people for having concerns about how we are looking to handle it. That is why I am here asking questions and looking to see what it is they want to avoid. I believe the end result will be enjoyable for the vast majority of players.

 

[ToorimaKun]

A) Get good, don't die.
B) Yes, durability will work. It does in all other games.
C) I have never heard of a game in which dying is not a punishment. If not time lost, then it's durability lost or in-game progress lost.. There are many ways of doing it. I mean for crying out loud.. You die..
D) You compare this to a theme park MMO. You cannot. There is no progression in a sandbox game as such you cannot be "maxed out" in 2 weeks.
E) No, people will only continue to improve so long as it's required of them.

A lot of the girls in my guild only play because they are dating/married to some one that plays video games..... they do not want to "get good"... they want to hang out with us and have fun.
I my self have no intention of "getting good" at shooter based combat.... this "get good" can go to the PVP arenas and stay there, if we have them again.

since MMORPGs have been completely ruined by cash shops most of my guild that plays RPGs have been playing alpha/beta games.... durability dose not work in every game lol
I mainly play RPG games... so i normally do not have an issue with durability... and if there is no need for durability why force it on people?

um... shooter games.... i mean you give the other team a point if you die... but in a PVE battle that is not the case any more.

I have played sandbox games with progression... and were quite good until other companies got involved.......

I assume this comment is about a resource sink...
if the crafting and resource system is like it was in the good days of firefall then we will be fine.
people are not going to wait till they have all the purple or orange resources they need to make their next unlocked skill/equipment.
firefall kinda pussy footed in to consumable items... if consumable items are done right then you will have your resource sink for the normal player... and thumpers and player bases are also a resource sink.
depending how much more sandboxie he wants to get... there could be even more stuff added for more resource sinks.

Yes, in a sense. You would prefer no punishment for dying?

as far as durability... yes... not sure what else could be done if people really wanted a punishment for dying... tho i don't see how having that would benefit in the open world.

We are still looking at open world like area's, it's just that we arent going with the standard designs one would expect from an MMO. Unlike an MMO our focus is on a persistent, simulated war. That is why we call Em-8ER a Massive Planetary Wargame not an MMOFPS.

Hmmm... sounds interesting.
as i have said i would be fine with linked zones like eve or feista... how fire fall is now where you just walk up to some thing and you just port strait to were ever doesn't feel like you are pushing the enemy back...

 

[Torgue_Joey]

TO ALL THOSE "CRYBABIES". "CRYING" ABOUT DYING AND DEATH PUNISHMENT.
WHY NOT MAKE US F*CKING UNDESTRUCTABLE IMMORTALS. YA'LL THINK THAT'S FUN? NO. F*CKING NO.

SIMPLE SOLUTION:
BROKEN FRAME. REMOVE ANY BENEFITS AND ABILITY FROM SAID BROKEN PARTS.
FRAME 100% DEAD, LIKE TOTAL KAPLEWY. DESPAWN IT. AND NOT ABLE TO "SUMMON" IT UNTIL. REPAIRED!
MALUS FROM DYING. YA'LL SUPPOSED TO KILL RABBITS. NOT BE KILLED BY THEM.

[insert internet logic]YOU PREFER REWARDING DEATH INSTEAD PUNISHMENT. THEN THIS GAME IS NOT FOR YOU.[/insert internet logic]

BLABLABLA (TO LAZY TO CONTINUE)

 

[ToorimaKun]

you probably were not around when durability was first getting implemented to the game... but it was a big deal.
a lot of people quit.

and i never said any thing about rewarding death :/
there is still the pain of having to run/glide back to the battle area from the spawn point since no clerics in this game to rez you.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

you probably were not around when durability was first getting implemented to the game... but it was a big deal.
a lot of people quit.

JUST IN CASE YA DIDN'T KNOW. F***F*** AIN'T THE ONLY GAME OUT THERE. EVER PLAYED OTHER GAMES WITH DURABILITY. (nah man, I just wanna bash and troll around. It's the digital age ya know)

and i never said any thing about rewarding death :/

NO PUNISHMENT IS REWARD ENOUGH.

there is still the pain of having to run/glide back to the battle area from the spawn point since no clerics in this game to rez you.

CLERICS??
YOU DON'T KNOW HOW IT IS, TO BE IGNORED WHEN ALL CLASSES AND PLAYERS CAN REZ YOU WITH A SINGLE BUTTON.
(THEY WERE PROBABLY ANNOYED OF MY "BROKEN" CAPS LOCK)

IF OUR GREAT LORD GRUMMZIFER EVER DECIDE TO PUT CLASSES IN EM.8ER. IMMA KNOCK ON HIS DOOR. WITH A BAZOOKA. AS A DOOR BREACHER.

 

[NitroMidgets]

Item durability is shit. Hate it in any game where I find it. No exceptions. You can have a death punishment but it does not have to mean breaking my gear. Borderlands did it well.

 

[ToorimaKun]

JUST IN CASE YA DIDN'T KNOW. F***F*** AIN'T THE ONLY GAME OUT THERE.

yes... lets just ignore the thousands of players we just lost in a single patch...... that worked out so well for us... firefall is just booming...

EVER PLAYED OTHER GAMES WITH DURABILITY.

you clearly aren't reading my posts....
I am one of the RPG players in my guild..... MOST the games i play have durability.... but it works fine in those games.

 

[Ronyn]

Item durability is shit. Hate it in any game where I find it. No exceptions. You can have a death punishment but it does not have to mean breaking my gear. Borderlands did it well.

As I mentioned before, durability doesn't always mean gear will break. We need to keep the distinction on that clear.

It's certainly ok not to like either form, I just want us all to have a clear picture of it.

@ToorimaKun Luckily that we are very aware of firefall's controversial version of durability. The systems being considered for Em-8ER have little to nothing in common with that.

One thing to keep in mind is synergy. That is to say, we want systems that work well together. In a game were collecting resources is a common goal, it makes good sense to create a resource cost to death. This doesn't mean it will be intrusive or make the play experience more about loss aversion than seeking gain. This comes down to the approach. Team Em-8ER is dedicated to keeping the players focus on the right places, the fun parts.

 

[Rawgi]

How many times did they keep totally changing gear and cores and all the others they tried without success? It was to the point that we feared the patches because it would mean learning a new system again. Buff this and nerf that it was a nightmare. I surely hope we get one way and stick with it.

 

[ToorimaKun]

In a game were collecting resources is a common goal, it makes good sense to create a resource cost to death.

Again i agree with having resource sinks..... but i don't think that player death has to be one of those.

a system we do know about right now is the new thumping system:
creating one of those thumper mech things will cost resources... resource sink right there.
working with this we can build on it to create more risk for loosing one.. meaning people will have to spend resources to build a new one.
such as having some kind of "over thumping" system where people can choose to provide the thumper mech a crate to carry more resource... the thumper would not be able to jump as high and if they are equipped with hand weapons he wouldn't be able to use them since he is carrying a crate.
the crate it's self would cost resources to make and could even be considered a consumable item in the sense that once it is unpacked it can't be repacked... so it would be too big to fit in a players inventory any more.

you would also add a thumping event near the end of a thumping section were a rare gem or such is found and spending the extra time to thump for it risks spawning bigger mobs... or have certain mobs be drawn to certain gems... this would also increase the risk of the thumper being destroyed as you move it back to base.

if you do both of these and a player takes part in both at the same time, then he/she extends the thumping time by triple and increases the travel risk by double from more mobs spawning from more time thumping and the mech being less agile and less able to defend its self as well as unique mobs spawning to try and take them gem.
plus i have added a new consumable item that will also be a resource sink.

see how easy it is to add more resource sinks with out adding the death resource sink?
and this is just the thumping part... not even the stuff you can add to the fight it's self... and other aspects of the game.



and for those that think there is no penitently to death
if your team wipes while thumping then it is highly likely your thumper will be destroyed while you run/fly back... unless a nice group of random players happens upon your thumper and saves it.

and people also seem to be forgetting how many times a single person saved the thumper by calling it up early... that can't be done with this new thumping system... these things will be destroyed more often then thumpers in the old game.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

and for those that think there is no penitently to death
if your team wipes while thumping then it is highly likely your thumper will be destroyed while you run/fly back... unless a nice group of random players happens upon your thumper and saves it.

and people also seem to be forgetting how many times a single person saved the thumper by calling it up early... that can't be done with this new thumping system... these things will be destroyed more often then thumpers in the old game.

a map wide chat can solve that problem

 

[ToorimaKun]

a map wide chat can solve that problem

if you are near some kind of landmark and some one is closer then the spawn point you spawn at.

if people can't find it or are farther away then the spawn point then chat isn't going to help

 

[Ronyn]

Again i agree with having resource sinks..... but i don't think that player death has to be one of those.

For what it's worth, yes, there are indeed all kinds of resource sinks, repair costs would be just one of many. But hold on with that train of thought. That is a different issue. In that section of my earlier post I wrote to you I wasn't referencing player death/repair costs potential value as a resource sink. I was talking about having good synergy of a goal and a penalty.

That is to say, if your in game goal is to gain some X, it makes sense the in game's penalty would be to loose some X.
Capture the flag vs loosing the flag, gaining power vs loosing power, gaining points vs loosing points. etc. It's keeping victory and failure connected into a central concept. Synergy. There are different expressions of that concept, but the idea remains about the same.

Certainly while thumping, keeping or loosing the thumper itself can serve that purpose. But what about other possible mission types unrelated to thumping? What about just facing off against an enemy patrol? Or getting involved in some kind of chase mission? Granted there can be specific gain/loss related to success and failure for each mission type but Ideally there would be a baseline reward for victory and cost for failure that would act as a sort of touch stone for all types of combat. In other words, building in a standard penalty for death has merit.

I'd still like to hear why you want to avoid that specifically.

 

[Mahdi]

I like the basics of durability in a game, but I back up the people on here saying the benefits of the gear should be lost when durability is at zero, NOT lose the damned gear totally. Build the repairing into the crafting system. Not an automatic repair option based on currency or instant. That will keep economy going and resources being used.

I think of two specific options for this. Either key a repair module at an equal quality level to the piece of gear. To be generic with the mmos, green fixes basic gear, blue fixes specialized gear, purple - epic, etc. So if you can afford to craft the piece of gear you can afford to craft the repair module....or buy it off what ever market system will be in place.

OR...a way I like better. Have the different grades of repair module repair a certain percentage of the gear. That way, if a player just has a really bad streak and is broke, they don't have to down grade to a crap piece and work their way up to repair, they can just use a lower tier repair module to get maybe only 15% durability back, then play more cautiously.

I feel this protects players in unfortunate events and moderates resource spending while giving an extra function to player economy/crafting.

 

[ToorimaKun]

In that section of my earlier post I wrote to you I wasn't referencing player death/repair costs potential value as a resource sink.

oh i see where you are coming from now, well in that case the effort of running/flying back in to the battle is i think punishment enough for death... you miss out on XP and dropped items... that should not be resources BTW... well at least the same resources you thump for.

That is to say, if your in game goal is to gain some X, it makes sense the in game's penalty would be to loose some X.

that is one of the issues FireFall had... they assumed every one wanted resources and to craft so they made earning resources a thing for every thing.
the material mats should be gained threw thumping
the currency should be gained threw quests/missions
rare blueprints or items for reverse engineering should be gained threw world/dynamic events... or what ever someone that likes to explore dose.

I'd still like to hear why you want to avoid that specifically.

pretty much durability in any form was not popular when firefall was talking about it.
many people that will think of joining this are going to be hoping for some thing that is like the peak of firefall.. and durability was not part of that.
and if the economy is done right then having a cost to death is not going to be some thing that balances well between the different play styles people can choose from.

dying is already going to be a downer.
resource sinks can be done many other ways.
so pretty much no point to having it in the first place... so why have some thing people are just not going to like in the first place.

 

[Ronyn]

I'm going to have to re-organize the way those questions are presented to answer then correctly.
Also I'm going to put my response in a spoiler tag to save space. Just click on it to read.

Spoiler: Expanded discussion

oh i see where you are coming from now, well in that case the effort of running/flying back in to the battle is i think punishment enough for death... you miss out on XP and dropped items... that should not be resources BTW... well at least the same resources you thump for.
-
dying is already going to be a downer.

So you suggest that the only penalty is that you loose the time you would have gaining something.
I am not certain that is enough, but I will definitely file away your suggestion for the future.

that is one of the issues FireFall had... they assumed every one wanted resources and to craft so they made earning resources a thing for every thing.
the material mats should be gained threw thumping
the currency should be gained threw quests/missions
rare blueprints or items for reverse engineering should be gained threw world/dynamic events... or what ever someone that likes to explore dose.

This is an interesting point, it brings up it's own discussion about what rewards should be gained from what in that game. However that may be incomparable with how Em-8ER will work.

For example: since Em-8ER is very much focused on players collecting resources then crafting their gear there may not even be any sort of XP to gain. There is a still a lot to be decided on, but at this stage all we can be certain of is that resources will take the central role in what the player is gaining from play.

pretty much durability in any form was not popular when firefall was talking about it.

That's not really a fair statement. Firefall only had durability of a particular specific form (with some small variations to that direction from patch to patch). We could not reasonably suggest the general player response to all possible forms of durability just from that.

many people that will think of joining this are going to be hoping for some thing that is like the peak of firefall.. and durability was not part of that.
-
so why have some thing people are just not going to like in the first place.

Different people expect different things. Depending on who you ask, firefall's golden era was at different points in time. Some folks are hoping to get as far away from the durability era of firefall as possible, some folks are hoping this game is as close to that era as possible. Like anything else, any feature we add someone will not like, any feature we leave out someone will miss. That is just the reality of the situation. There is no way to design Em-8ER in a way that will please every single set of preferences, nor are we attempting to. Our goal is to create a well designed and truly cohesive experience that fit's within firefall's original design direction. We believe this will please a large number of people.

All that said, let us not mistakenly equate all forms of durability systems with the version that firefall used. As I mentioned before, the versions of durability being considered for Em-8Er have little to nothing in common with firefall's version.

and if the economy is done right then having a cost to death is not going to be some thing that balances well between the different play styles people can choose from.

I don't believe anyone has enough information to make that kind of assessment. Though I'm open to hearing out how you come to this conclusion.

resource sinks can be done many other ways.

Realistically resource sinks will have to come from multiple sources so that no single activity will make it too beneficial or too punishing. I'd never suggest that repair costs make or break the economy by themselves, it's a matter of whether they can be part of the solution.

so pretty much no point to having it in the first place...

That remains a contested point.