Game mechanics

[Buster1013]

Firefall was my favorite game until version 0.8. It had issues (ex. small content), but it also had some great and unique game mechanics (destroyed totally on launch). I have read about Em8er - it will be real Firefall with open world and horizontal progression - but I have some questions about game mechanics, which are the most important element of the game. I know it is very early stage, so I don't expect precise answers - just what are your plans.

I What is your vision of ingame Economy (Decay vs. Power Creep)?

I know that most players hated decay in Firefall. Decay system was quite good, but crafting and resource system doesn't match it (like Ferrari with bicycle wheels). In game with horizontal progression, it is possible to make decay that players don't have to care about. How? Autoreplace system, which automatically buy the same set of items from market. So players, who don't like gathering resources and crafting, could sell all loot and go for another battle without even looking into inventory. Of course it is not easy, because it needs special resource, crafting and market systems.

Power Creep is very dangerous direction unless you have huge studio or very low standards. It killed Firefall, because Red5 wasn't able to create enough content. I don't know if it is actual, but I have heard that in Em8er there will be more base progression than character progression. I'm worried that it may change into Base Building Power Creep.

II Are you going to focus more on big Open World locations or team instances?

One of the greatest advantages of Firefall was playing without being forced to team up. I often played for many hours in the same area with random players and I loved that! This was the best way to make new friends, learn new tactics, abilities combos, etc. In every moment I could go afk, leave game or go doing something else without destroying party (which has to wait for new player). I often did the same mission in the same location 10+ times a day, but with different people (their number, skill, tactic, etc.) it was always fun. I wonder if in Em8er it will be the same.

III How much Vertical progression is going to be?

I have read, that in Em8er it is going to be 100% horizontal progression. I like horizontal progression, but I always prefer golden mean. Some constant vertical progression could have great effect on game. Good example was constraints system in Firefall (mass, power, CPU) - easy to understand and very deep (Who doesn't like making own perfect build?). Making one lower level zone is also good idea (for community events, new players, crafters, testing weapons/abilities, etc.), but getting decent gear shouldn't take long (say NO to grind).

 

[zdoofop]

@Grummz said something about a vision for elegant metagame. I'm sure some of your uestions will be answered then.

 

[Ronyn]

Welcome to the boards Buster, we are very happy to see you on here. Let me see what I can help answer for you here.

I What is your vision of ingame Economy (Decay vs. Power Creep)?

II Are you going to focus more on big Open World locations or team instances?

III How much Vertical progression is going to be?

I This is a gateway to a much larger discussion about an economic model that would have to begin with clarifying some of the terms and options truly involved. For now I will keep it simple and relay what was written in the original indiegogo campaign.
"Durability: Items will not break, but will need to be repaired (at less resource cost than what it was to make)."

II I don't believe there has been a public statement answering that question just yet.

III Exactly how much has not been revealed at this time. But I will relay some information from the original indiegogo campaign.
"A shooter first, with great movement, guns and abilities. Skill matters. Progression is horizontal, opening up more options and abilities and gameplay."
and then what was said in an additional post from Grummz.
"So, horizontal progression still has a power curve. But it has 2 main differences in Ember:
1) Power curve is much shallower than traditional online game.
2) There is a strong skill component to many things, making skill matter
Just wanted to remind everyone that horizontal does not mean "flat" as we've defined it."

Hopefully that helps.

 

[EvilKitten]

Just wanted to remind everyone that horizontal does not mean "flat" as we've defined it."

I get what Grumz was saying, but this comment has been bugging me since I saw it...

hor·i·zon·tal
ˌhôrəˈzän(t)l/
adjective

1. parallel to the plane of the horizon; at right angles to the vertical.

Yes...horizontal DOES mean flat in the English language. That's like saying, "Oh we said 20 bucks but actually that means 50 bucks as we have defined it" You can't redefine words after you have used them simply because it is convenient. I really don't want Em-8er to go down the road of no man's sky. This game is barely in the planning phase yet so simply say that there will be a small vertical component as well as horizontal progression. Sure some people (including myself) won't be happy hearing there will be any vertical at all, but we'll get over it. Things change, as you have already pointed out to me before when I asked about the original poster art.

 

[zdoofop]

I get what Grumz was saying, but this comment has been bugging me since I saw it...

hor·i·zon·tal
ˌhôrəˈzän(t)l/
adjective

1. parallel to the plane of the horizon; at right angles to the vertical.

Yes...horizontal DOES mean flat in the English language. That's like saying, "Oh we said 20 bucks but actually that means 50 bucks as we have defined it" You can't redefine words after you have used them simply because it is convenient. I really don't want Em-8er to go down the road of no man's sky. This game is barely in the planning phase yet so simply say that there will be a small vertical component as well as horizontal progression. Sure some people (including myself) won't be happy hearing there will be any vertical at all, but we'll get over it. Things change, as you have already pointed out to me before when I asked about the original poster art.

can you imagine the early alpha release notes being "-turned this game into "WOW with guns: the sequel""

lol hope not

 

[Grummz]

Well, we're not doing an MMO, so a lot of Firefall later baggage does not apply.

The key experience are the invasions and the activities that support fighting in invasions (mining, terraforming, basebuliding).

Firefall got caught in the MMO content trap (more raids, more zones, etc.). Em-8ER is supposed to be more like a persistent Battlefield game. As such, its about the action and the fun of combat with lots of players vs a tough enemy AI.

It's one reason why its not F2P or subscription based.

I do have plans on how to expand the game after its launch if people enjoy it enough.

 

[Buster1013]

Well, we're not doing an MMO

Do you mean MMORPG? I don't understand how "MASSIVE PLANETARY WARGAME" is not "Massively multiplayer online game".

The key experience are the invasions and the activities that support fighting in invasions (mining, terraforming, basebuliding). [...] its about the action and the fun of combat with lots of players vs a tough enemy AI.

If I understand correctly, you want to create compilation of:

• big scale shooter (huge map, capturing checkpoints, vehicles, minimal MMORPG elements),
• RTS from soldier point of view (player is only one part of huge machine, base tech tree, getting resources and developing base with other players, global goals).

This is the opposite of 99% of MMOs, where 95% of time you are taking care of your character (exp, progression, gear) and only 5% on game community. This is very risky, because most players are egoists and mostly care about their prestige in community. If they put much effort and don't get satisfactional reward (ex. unique title, warpaint, vehicle), they could leave. This works perfect in Firefall - buying another vehicle or glider only for unique look or spending tens of hours for time-limited event titles. This and few other factors create bound between players and game which survived long after destroying (launchning) game.

It's one reason why its not F2P or subscription based.

If what I wrote above is not completely wrong, I understand that F2P would be a suicide.

 

[Luna12]

Do you mean MMORPG? I don't understand how "MASSIVE PLANETARY WARGAME" is not "Massively multiplayer online game".
If I understand correctly, you want to create compilation of:

• big scale shooter (huge map, capturing checkpoints, vehicles, minimal MMORPG elements),
• RTS from soldier point of view (player is only one part of huge machine, base tech tree, getting resources and developing base with other players, global goals).

This is the opposite of 99% of MMOs, where 95% of time you are taking care of your character (exp, progression, gear) and only 5% on game community. This is very risky, because most players are egoists and mostly care about their prestige in community. If they put much effort and don't get satisfactional reward (ex. unique title, warpaint, vehicle), they could leave. This works perfect in Firefall - buying another vehicle or glider only for unique look or spending tens of hours for time-limited event titles. This and few other factors create bound between players and game which survived long after destroying (launchning) game.
If what I wrote above is not completely wrong, I understand that F2P would be a suicide.

It's exactly because it's so different from almost all other MMO's that Grummz/Mark doesn't want to brand it as an MMO, even if it is Massive, Multiplayer and Online.

 

[Ronyn]

I don't understand how "MASSIVE PLANETARY WARGAME" is not "Massively multiplayer online game".

Essentially, all that "MMO" means is that there is a game where a-lot-of-players-do-stuff-in-an-open-world.
So is Em-8ER going to be a game where a-lot-of-players-do-stuff-in-an-open-world? Absolutely.
However the reality is that there is a difference between what words technically mean compared to how many people understand them.

When people hear or read "MMO" many of them will automatically add on the expectations for a variety of specific features and mechanics on top of simply "a-lot-of-players-do-stuff-in-an-open-world". Certain common things in the "MMO genre" have created a set of expectations, for better or for worse. Expectations based on several other games they may have played that are called "mmo's". Those expectations can lead to confusion and/or disappointment if and when the game in question does things very differently. The reason Em-8ER is called a "Massive Planetary Wargame" is to create a different set of expectations from the very beginning for everyone involved.

So when we say "We are not making an MMO", we are effectively saying "do not apply the variety of expectations you may have about what features/mechanics MMO's should have on to Em-8ER. This is something different. Check it out."

If I understand correctly, you want to create compilation of:

• big scale shooter (huge map, capturing checkpoints, vehicles, minimal MMORPG elements),
• RTS from soldier point of view (player is only one part of huge machine, base tech tree, getting resources and developing base with other players, global goals).

This is the opposite of 99% of MMOs, where 95% of time you are taking care of your character (exp, progression, gear) and only 5% on game community. This is very risky, because most players are egoists and mostly care about their prestige in community. If they put much effort and don't get satisfactional reward (ex. unique title, warpaint, vehicle), they could leave. This works perfect in Firefall - buying another vehicle or glider only for unique look or spending tens of hours for time-limited event titles. This and few other factors create bound between players and game which survived long after destroying (launchning) game.
If what I wrote above is not completely wrong, I understand that F2P would be a suicide.

There is a way that what is best for the player and what is best for the overall war effort work in concert.
Eventually more of that will be explained. Please stay tuned.

 

[zdoofop]

Essentially, all that "MMO" means is that there is a game where a-lot-of-players-do-stuff-in-an-open-world.
So is Em-8ER going to be a game where a-lot-of-players-do-stuff-in-an-open-world? Absolutely.
However the reality is that there is a difference between what words technically mean compared to how many people understand them.

When people hear or read "MMO" many of them will automatically add on the expectations for a variety of specific features and mechanics on top of simply "a-lot-of-players-do-stuff-in-an-open-world". Certain common things in the "MMO genre" have created a set of expectations, for better or for worse. Expectations based on several other games they may have played that are called "mmo's". Those expectations can lead to confusion and/or disappointment if and when the game in question does things very differently. The reason Em-8ER is called a "Massive Planetary Wargame" is to create a different set of expectations from the very beginning for everyone involved.

So when we say "We are not making an MMO", we are effectively saying "do not apply the variety of expectations you may have about what features/mechanics MMO's should have on to Em-8ER. This is something different. Check it out."


There is a way that what is best for the player and what is best for the overall war effort work in concert.
Eventually more of that will be explained. Please stay tuned.

meaning no amount of begging will make them put in pvp. Good. I hate pvp. And I'm not just saying that because I lost everything in EVE, I really do hate pvp.

 

[Ronyn]

meaning no amount of begging will make them put in pvp.

This is a completely unrelated subject to PVP. Let's not cross the wires here.