PvP......

[Fryepod]

Hey Ember/Firefall community.

I haven't been active on the forums as much as I've been working/ streaming mostly...

So while chatting with Mark about a MMORPG that's in development he mentioned how there will be no PvP (as of their current idea for Ember) and I have to say I'm disappointed.

I came to firefall for the PvE, I stayed for PvP. I was in a very tiny PvP army that included a PvP (b)programmer and another dev. We spent hours together testing and quirking open world PvP, jetball, TDM ect.

Obviously to little avail. I understand MOST people want PvE out of the game. I'm sure the poll will show that.

But I'm a firm believer that you can in fact build an open world PvP enviroment that uses all the things you've earned in PVE. That's the point to me in games like this. Who's build is the craziest, who's omiframe is the most dynamic, who's really made themself a serious force to be reckoned with.

I'm not going to gone trying to make points for PvP, I don't think the Ember community wants it that much currently and it's of sad news to me.

I planned on donating towards the next strech goal but that did it in for me. I still look foward to Ember and playing with you guys, but with no PvP planned it's knocked ember down a peg and I probably won't be too active here until we get some beta or playable content.

 

[Terib.Shadow]

Mark made it clear, most of us made it clear, we don't want pvp, there won't be pvp.

EDIT : OP, you should edit the poll to want pvp and not play pvp, as obviously everyone will play pvp once, and then find out it's crap.

 

[Vilento]

Maybe a little arena thing on the side... away from everything with no rewards and no requirements... out in the ocean away from everything of importance, where no one can see it. Maybe I would be ok with that. But elsewhere? No.

 

[Earth_Soldier]

Random generated holographic arenas for PvP could might work, just like in Custom Robo

 

[Squid Boss]

Right now?

No.

Limited development and what not should be focused on the PvE aspect since it will likely hold the bigger player pool. If anything it could be an addition with the game established. It would really depend on what the style of PvP is. Arena? Meh. Boring and literally done everywhere else and many of which that is its focus or only purpose.

 

[Thorp]

I prefer pvp rather than pve. While I do appreciate certain aspects of pve I lose a lot of interest when it boils down to exploiting flaws in the AI programming in order to win. In truth even real human players can be predictable but what really makes them 'better' is ingenuity and imagination. The AI does not mix things up and that bores me whereas humans often work to find ways to beat a strategy. (What really triggers me is *hey everyone huddle in this corner and the AI pathing bugs out. Do it otherwise the raid is so hard it's near impossible without max gear*).

I suppose to make a very general statement, there is no metagame challenge in pve. Pve bores me to death when it's all about the new way to exploit the AI programming. Pvp is at least a little sporty and malleable. Yes I concede that pvp arenas are just repeated scenarios however humans rarely repeat exact times and actions when there are enough options available. Conversely with AI, it will do the same thing every time unless there is RNG and enough programmed options to perform. Additionally in the aspect of pvp, player skill varies as such spawn times change which leads to an 'unlimited' amount of possibilities.

I am sad to hear there is no immediate intention for pvp. All I can ask for is an OCT and Blackwater...with 1 new map every idk...1 year...so the community at least gets some attention and doesn't just fade away like a neglected cactus; just water it...just water it a little and it will live. Just like doing pve dungeons over and over and over, pvp is no different in that the same map over and over for years gets old. In the end perhaps I don't know how difficult it is to balance pvp. Pve gets a whole map, mobs, bosses, script, storyline, and players balanced...pvp just needs players balanced and a map.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

I like pvp when playing with or against friends. PvP community get toxic very fast. And player balancing is a pain in the ass, constantly balancing balancing balancing. And because the the majority are trash and noobs complaining about actual skilled players, thus crying and screaming for nerfs, wich fuck up the entire pvp branch.

And exploits..... Oh, just wait till one exploit pvp ^^

 

[Pandagnome]

I like pvp the way l4d2 have done and killing floor 2 its fun
other than that i prefer pve because i want to lose myself into the game and
find the next objective and story that it could lead me to!

 

[Vladplaya]

I was thinking about making this topic, but I was gathering my thoughts on how to properly approach this. This is very important and delicate topic, and people need to have open mind and good understanding of game development and what makes a game successful.

And unfortunately a lot of times suggestion to add PvP is met with almost a hostility.

Mark and Ebert team ( btw do they have a studio name yet) will need to sit down and carefully consider what they are giving up by not having a pvp.
First and foremost it would be a large player base that likes PvP and wants to have PvP option in their games.
Where their game is going to be in couple years. What options for the gameplay will be there, well it be enough, will it get boring and stale? Will PvP being that extra option to the table that will keep people entertained between different styles of experience that the game will have?

I just can't image it been very difficult to work on. As I mentioned in different topic about similar conversation. They can just have parallel PvP stats on weapons and abilities, and work on those as they are creating the game. Whatever crazy abilities we are going to have for PvE will simply do less damage and have smaller effects on other players. Those wouldn't have to be perfectly balanced in the beginning, but they should have the system in place when, and if they will seriously decide to add fully fleshed out PvP experience down the road.

For PvP modes it can start very simple. Dueling. It's best way to test pvp stats on massive scale. People would be expecting dueling out of mmo game and I think using PvE stats probably wouldn't be too much fun, especially if those might be purposefully op because they are designed for PvE.
Next step after dueling would be clan wars. Should be really simple, two clans decide to have a war, the leaders agree, timer starts, for next X amount of hours/days members of both clans can wack each other outside of the bases (gotta have those safe zones).
After that, next easiest step would be to have certain zones where if you go there and flag yourself for PvP, you can kill and be killed by anyone for as long as you are in that zone. I would prefer there would be zones (on the outskirts of the planets) where people are automatically flagged for PvP, but I am afraid that will give pve only players an aneurysm haha

Anyways what I have described above doesn't require any intense development. Coding, some UI, and at least rough balance to start with. And once you get those basics done, you shouldn't really need anything else for a while.
If the game takes of, and balance is pretty good, then move on and spend time on making arena pvp with its own maps and rewards, and which can probably be much more competitive. But that's far into future.

But yeah, when you making a game with horizontal progression, vehicles and large world with resources. You know people will be playing it and saying stuff like "Wouldn't it be freaking cool to go to war with other clans, or to be able to fight each other?" And the answer is, yes, it would be freaking awesome, except you can't.

And finally for those who can't stand PvP, just don't touch it, and don't worry about. It will never effect you. The ONLY negative that people can legitly complain about, is that the devs will be taking time working on PvP instead of PvE. And so what? There are plenty diversity in PvE content, and devs might be working on something that you don't specifically enjoy, but people don't go around bitching about that, now do they? (yes, they do, but not as much as when it comes to pvp)
Basically don't justhate something that might be enjoyable for other players, and something that can actually benefit the game in the long run, for no reason. There is just no reason for that nonsense. Yeah I think pvp in Ember can be great, and the game will miss out big time by not exploring that possibility, especially early on when you can easily implement and change things as you go, but I also understand the limitations from financial side and the size of the team. Creating a game from scratch on a budget must be challenging as hell, but man, please, don't cheap out on important things if you don't have to.

 

[NightStroke]

I think that for the sake of maintaining direction and the size of the Dev team, we shouldn't do pvp right now. Trust me, I loved firefall's BP but the game needs to maintain focus and OWPvP should be a goal when and if this game is successful

 

[Torgue_Joey]

When it comes to PvP in Ember, there's 2 thing i can only come up with.

Duel/challange in PvE, where you can challenge some out and let all shit out. Sometime i just want to kick @Terib.x butt for the lulz.

2nd a PvP war server, where 2 or more clans trying to take over an area where many outpost with various bonuses tied together, like knot and strings. No timer or shit, join and leave whenever you like.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

I think that for the sake of maintaining direction and the size of the Dev team, we shouldn't do pvp right now. Trust me, I loved firefall's BP but the game needs to maintain focus and OWPvP should be a goal when and if this game is successful

Yeah, pve comes first till fleshed out. And when the dev is happy and got spare time or nothing better to do, then they can experiment with pvp stuff.
Just hope it ain't no typical boring pvp like nearly every games has

 

[Vladplaya]

And when the dev is happy and got spare time or nothing better to do, then they can experiment with pvp stuff.

This will never happen, there are always things to fix, improve and other stuff on the backburner.
That's why you do things right from the start. PvP might not be the focus of the game, but it would be wise to set up the basic systems and plans for the future, from the start.

 

[NightStroke]

This will never happen, there are always things to fix, improve and other stuff on the backburner.
That's why you do things right from the start. PvP might not be the focus of the game, but it would be wise to set up the basic systems and plans for the future, from the start.

I think a basic system would simply be a "switch" players voluntarily choose to go into another server with a squad of players, and you and your team do pve content with other pvp teams.(this relies on high value resources getting consumed whenever someone successfully thumps them). Leave that in the game (especially during the beginning stages when everyone has a default load out) and worry about advanced mechanics and other things later.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

This will never happen, there are always things to fix, improve and other stuff on the backburner.
That's why you do things right from the start. PvP might not be the focus of the game, but it would be wise to set up the basic systems and plans for the future, from the start.

Not really necessary to do it from the starts on ember. I could care less if there's a pvp or not. But the worst is "what kind of pvp? ". isn't it getting to boring have match based pvp like every one els. Some company are just big enough to make different types of pvp in 1 game.

 

[Vladplaya]

Not really necessary to do it from the starts on ember. I could care less if there's a pvp or not. But the worst is "what kind of pvp? ". isn't it getting to boring have match based pvp like every one els. Some company are just big enough to make different types of pvp in 1 game.

Yes, that seems to be mentality of many people, "I don't care about something, therefore developers shouldn't bother with it". Quite problematic way of thinking.
And although I wouldn't mind even arena style pvp, in my previous post, I have mentioned pvp modes that would work for the open world style game, and arguably more fun and less resource demanding than the standard arena pvp.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

Yes, that seems to be mentality of many people, "I don't care about something, therefore developers shouldn't bother with it". Quite problematic way of thinking.
And although I wouldn't mind even arena style pvp, in my previous post, I have mentioned pvp modes that would work for the open world style game, and arguably more fun and less resource demanding than the standard arena pvp.

Yes an open world pvp is definitely better and more fun and would vote for that too. But I'm not for arena stuff (enough game like that out there). guess it's because I'm more the quake and unreal style when it comes to arena pvp. With "I could care less" is more like, if it has pvp but it sucks/boring/cliché, then I'll stay in pve and pay no attention to pvp. To many things out there that destroyed my interest in pvp

 

[13umbleBee]

TLDR: Pros and cons on each side. But Ember needs to make money to operate in the long run.


Some enjoyable PvP experiences.
Used to play Tribes and loved it (Tribes 2 and even the Ascended version).
Reason being, that the playing field was level. And that you were only limited by your skill and the amount of teamwork/coordination that your team has. So when you get taken out by a blue Frisbee by a flag capper making a run for it mid air, all this time keeping his momentum up and dodging fire. You just gotta smile. Similarly, when I occasionally score a disc hit mid air, it was fun too. Oh..and the time I had a light sniper laz up a targets for a drop ship full of heavy with motars? Art in motion. The folks who designed this series, had put in risk vs reward constraints in the game that made the players choose. Light frame with speed or slow heavy frame? And, I've seen some pretty good heavy frame players that totally desecrate bases. I've also seen Light frame players dance around everyone and came out on top. It comes down to the skill level of the player, not the gear.

Not so enjoyable PvP experiences. Being ganked, griefed on WoW. Some say that it is the rite of passage on PvP servers and that it adds to the experience of it all. But I did not want to pay a subscription per month doing corpse run when I've got very limited time to play. Life is hard enough as it is, I don't really need my gaming time to be filled with frustration because I could not retaliate because I am a) out geared, b) out leveled. Hands up folks who can remember being challenged to duels by someone who is a) Higher leveled b) moar Epicly geared. I've lost count of the times I've seen this happen in Orgrimmar.


Ember is still young and at the moment, despite a fabulous flying start, will still be constrained by the amount of resources they can afford throw at the game. Remember the time when Molten core or Old Naxx 40 man was only done by the most hardcore of the WoW playing population. Back then, all the work that went into the set pieces were only seen by a select elite few. Fast forward to today, the raids now are more open, they scale to your raid size. You have the Looking for Raid function where you can PUG a raid. EVERYONE gets to see the beautifully crafted encounter that the devs put in so much time and effort in. And these are the folks that will be inclined to renew their subscription. No commercial company can afford to not listen to their biggest paying customer demographic.

I think Blizzard has done a very commendable job of pleasing the 2 camps. There are Arenas. And PvP sets are near useless for PvE, and vice versa. So if any of their subscribers wants a taste of PvP, they only need to wonder down to their local fight club and have it at like minded folks. Even the carebears get some PvP attention in the form of open world pvp zones where you can flag yourself PvP and take/hold objectives to grant zone wide bonuses for your faction. The rest of the crew too can have their day in the sun by dropping raid bosses like flies. Both camps pay up. Everyone wins.

I think it boils down to the following.

1) There are always going to be supporters for the 2 camps. Story and lore driven on one side. Unpredictability and challenging on the other. The requirements for both camps are always going to be different.

2) Ember is early in development, so money is tight. They need to spend their resources wisely. It is far better to pick a direction and execute well than try to please everyone and fail both. Given a resource constraint.

3) If and when Ember goes into production, it WILL need to generate an income to pay for all the expenses incurred to bring us the game. This income will come from people who are happy to pay because they are happy to play. And if the group happens to the PvP group. Then that is the direction that the game will take. Like LoL, StarCraft and Dota, all of which have a strong eSports pressence.

4) Mark has stated that his focus will be the PvE side of the equation, not to say that PvP will never happen. But the focus will be on delivering a compelling PvE experience that will being home the bread, as a start.

5) PvP is consensual, i.e All participating parties agree to lock horns. Paladins is in beta and it's not too bad. Good for a quick skirmish in the evening if you got time. Good PvP is awesome fun, and teamwork and coordination here is equally important. See above example of lazing targets for heavy mortars. The laughter in vent when we light up the enemy base like a chrismas tree on the 4th of july... epic.

6) Risk vs rewards. Dangle a big enough carrot for the PvE crowd to flag PvP , maybe PvE bonuses, and they will come..lol. And vice versa.

7) Last but not least, Good PvP'ers actually make awesome PvEers, we had some back in our old raid group and they had god awesome situational awareness... I don't think I've seen a good PvE'er translate to PvP.. but that's just me lol.

Just my 2 cents
13B

 

[Caveman]

Hey Ember/Firefall community...

I'm not going to gone trying to make points for PvP, I don't think the Ember community wants it that much currently and it's of sad news to me...

I don't think it's something as simple as "community wants".
PvE and PvP based games are two different gametypes that consist of very different types of content/ mechanics/ core gameplay/ etc. which require enormous amount of work to deliver just one type. I rather pleased that Mark set clear path in which he is going to develop Ember, and given small resources it'll gonna take a lot of time and effort to reach those goals. And I sure hope he will manage to avoid all those pitfalls he faced with Firefall.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

I don't think it's something as simple as "community wants".
PvE and PvP based games are two different gametypes that consist of very different types of content/ mechanics/ core gameplay/ etc. which require enormous amount of work to deliver just one type. I rather pleased that Mark set clear path in which he is going to develop Ember, and given small resources it'll gonna take a lot of time and effort to reach those goals. And I sure hope he will manage to avoid all those pitfalls he faced with Firefall.

Mark already made it clear