Keeping the science in sci-fi

[Ronyn]

That sounds like a bit of hand-holding, though.

What I described is far from hand-holding. As usual implementation is key, that is what I intend to stress the most.
Games like devil may cry 1, 3 and 4 are notoriously punishing on their harder difficulty settings. Their brand of telegraphs are about readability. The gears of war series has relatively slow characters in cover based combat. Without an indicator that the one shot was a potential threat it could be used to insta-gib with minimal counterplay possible.
Very different types of games but in both cases it's about putting the conditions for victory or failure in the hands of the player as opposed to the system.

To apply that kind of thought process would require an Ember specific examination of where/when/how it would and would not fit.

 

[phoenix]

auto-aiming

I said no sutch thing. maybe it looked kinda similar to auto aiming but I didn't intended it to be like auto aiming. I was more in the visual cue direction. A vector that shows the velocity and direction of the enemy, something like that. That would be a neath feature that doesn't add much to the game play but make the game feel more sci-fi.

The auto aiming was actually directed against the player. AI would get auto aiming based on client side calculation/path prediction.

 

[Daynen]

A combination of all these approaches is not only possible, but practical and scientifically plausible (though I tend to hate enemies having auto-aim, it's like they're using tab-targeting and we're not.)

Weapons that lock-on and track targets should be nothing new or disturbing; we have those already. The reason they make sense within a game is that we have measures to fight them when they're launched, either by shooting them down, forcing them to lose track by skillful dodging, or flares/ECM to confuse their tracking. As long as multiple countermeasures and counterplay exist, lock-ons are perfectly fair and explainable.

Telegraphs for attacks are a muddier topic to me, because it's very easy to cross the line between "scientifically accurate" and "easy mode." I can understand if there's equipment available that gives us the OPTION of having extra telegraphs for enemy attacks or other predictions; it allows a sort of training wheel that lets us practice dodging a particularly troublesome type of attack. Otherwise, the sounds and sights of enemy behaviors should be up to us to track; having a boss always call out "I'M DROPPIN MAH MORTARS RIIIIIIGHT HERE!" for example, will quickly become patronizing and brainless, but hearing a distinctive CLUNK of a mortar tube getting set up, followed by the resounding "FOOMP" of the shell firing should be all the cue we need to look up, estimate a trajectory, and GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY. Having a giant red circle painted on the ground overlay removes any need to pay attention to the enemy's actions.

Now, if we only GET that red circle BY paying attention and giving our computers early visual data with which to produce that circle, possibly broadcasting it to our team? THAT'S a different story...

Imagine that for a second; a recon frame equipped with tracking software that relies on the pilot's direct observation, causing his computer to generate advanced warning in the forms of audio-visual telegraphs for his squad! Part of his job will be to keep key enemies in sight at all times so his computer can share targeting and incoming data with his team! It could even be a toggled option for squadmates who want the extra info or those who find it distracting. The equipment would of course take up space in your build, of course. Not only will some teams distinctly appreciate it, but it allows the devs to put it much more dangerous and subtle enemy behaviors, knowing that players have a way to counter that subtlety. It's cause and effect, player choice, build tradeoffs AND a potentially useful gameplay role! Now THAT'S what I call reconnaissance!

 

[Vladplaya]

@Omnires I actually did notice that you haven't directly asked for the telegraphing UI, but after reading your extensive replies about the feature, it only makes sense to assume that you want something like that in the game.

Otherwise if you are going to write huge posts about something, you would think you would pick an example that is actually related to the game?

As far as your other points:
The enemy attack patterns don't have to be as prominent as they are in mmos. There are thousands of shooter games without any telegraphing mechanics, and they work just fine. You just lean what different enemies can do and just roll with it.

And sure the explanation behind how they can work is cool and all, but surely we could have started talking about something that actually is or will need to be in the game?

 

[Omnires]

I really hope that there's some type of anomalous material or something available. Otherwise it would be as easy as "sniff out potential targets, shoot them from orbit once they turn agressive".
In Firefall for instance the crystite allowed for all the strange equipment and goodies, and allowed for a semi-plausible reason why these battleframes powered by the equivalent of a fusion reactor could be damaged in any way by wildlife such as Arachs and devolved half-dinosaurs. If you added in crystite mutations that gave them unnatural strength and protection it would be possible.

Ember needs something similar. There's no single way that anything would even remotely be in danger from the local wildlife if it can't be enhanced in any way. It would be like thinking a duck could harm a knight in full-plate. There would even be easier methods, such as hormonal warfare to pacify the local wildlife or using poison gasses to simply knock-out or kill anything that attempts to attack the players.

Maybe here's one explanation: There's a ton of terraformed planets everywhere, even though the actual count of planets with life on them isn't that high in real-life. There's around 13 (if I remember it right from the Crixa lore) human factions that spread out over the galaxy and mostly developed in isolation from each other until FTL warpgates were invented. These humans might have been throwing around specialized terraforming seeds into planets to start the terraforming process long before the first human settlers arrive. As the planet is terraformed, the seed will release a new wave of specialized creatures and plantlife to generate the right gasses and materials and complete each terraforming stage.
The type of terraforming seed determines the type of terraformation process that's going on, and determines the biome's that form. Planets can have been hit by multiple types of seed (intentionally or not) and offer different biome's on the planet.
But that animal life needs to have been engineered and capable of surviving the incredibly harsh environments (especially the one's that start on the almost barren planet). They can have special gene's that can accelerate evolution in specific directions to better adapt to the planet and it's environments. This offers us the escape hatch as to why these creatures are so dangerous and strong. They are closer to biological machines than actual creatures, and can potentially use hypermodern types of armor, mono-molecular structures, special electricity&chemical production and other things that are build within their bodies that lend them the immense power and special abilities required to actually fight with the human terraformers that follow.
The aggression of the wildlife can be a result of a requirement to survive as the planet is terraformed, or a mistake in the seed that wasn't discovered until the first planets with these seeds started to be colonized, or a deliberate tempering by a rival faction to sap manpower and resources while slowing down the colonization.

I can see something like that happening. Even more so when think about all the wildlife in real life that can do things like live near and in volcanos, inside ice, there even a few that survive in the vacuum of space as well as reentry, things with armored bodies, thing with abilities to counter armored bodies, things with what count accounts for a biological gun in their bodies, and so on. There is no shortage of ways biological lifeforms can live, grow, and fight for survival. So it would not be hard to explain away how different attacks made my plants and animals could hurt the pilot and damage the mecha as long as understand things like biology and material science.

Now, if we only GET that red circle BY paying attention and giving our computers early visual data with which to produce that circle, possibly broadcasting it to our team? THAT'S a different story...

Imagine that for a second; a recon frame equipped with tracking software that relies on the pilot's direct observation, causing his computer to generate advanced warning in the forms of audio-visual telegraphs for his squad! Part of his job will be to keep key enemies in sight at all times so his computer can share targeting and incoming data with his team! It could even be a toggled option for squadmates who want the extra info or those who find it distracting. The equipment would of course take up space in your build, of course. Not only will some teams distinctly appreciate it, but it allows the devs to put it much more dangerous and subtle enemy behaviors, knowing that players have a way to counter that subtlety. It's cause and effect, player choice, build tradeoffs AND a potentially useful gameplay role! Now THAT'S what I call reconnaissance!

And that is kind of how some of the newer targeting systems in real life work. By sharing the data they have with others it allows for better accuracy in the predictive models as well as notify others in the team of possible threats. This also allows team members to accuracy attack from behind cover if needed. Like artillery cannons or a tank using a high arching shot to fire from behind a hill or mountain to hit a target that is also behind cover. This means as long as you or one of squadmates know where the enemy is, non-line of sight combat is possible. This also how things like battleships do over the horizon attacks (firing shots from beyond the curvature of the Earth to hit targets they can't see.

And given that is a sci-fi game with things like flying mecha and spaceships. I can things like over the horizon attacks and orbital strikes being a factor in some battles if they are in range of long distance weapons platforms.

@Omnires I actually did notice that you haven't directly asked for the telegraphing UI, but after reading your extensive replies about the feature, it only makes sense to assume that you want something like that in the game.

Otherwise if you are going to write huge posts about something, you would think you would pick an example that is actually related to the game?

As far as your other points:
The enemy attack patterns don't have to be as prominent as they are in mmos. There are thousands of shooter games without any telegraphing mechanics, and they work just fine. You just lean what different enemies can do and just roll with it.

And sure the explanation behind how they can work is cool and all, but surely we could have started talking about something that actually is or will need to be in the game?

Just because I talking a lot about something don't assume that it equates me wanting something. Knowing a lot about something like warfare and how kill people is not the same as wanting death and destruction. There are people who can compartmentalize themselves to help ensure valid debates and stay valid and get to the most reasonable and logical solution on the topic at hand. Just because I may debate for or against a person in a court of law doesn't mean I have to believe they are guilty or innocent to do so. I just have explore valid options and scenarios to get to the truth. I don't let things like my personal opinion get in the way of things like facts. As one person once said "Never ASSUME, because when you ASSUME, you make an ASS of U and ME." As the kind of system you might be thinking of may not be the same kind of systems I'm thinking of. As telegraphing in games is a kind of umbrella term, as some other people have already posted.

And if you want being up another topic in this thread go ahead. I'm not stopping you. As long as it is a valid topic I'll using what I know about real science and other sci-fi to try and give a reasonable explanation for how and/or why it exists in the game in an unbiased way for that is how I am.

 

[avalon1k]

Locking on and homing-attacks like that should have a limit, then, at least. A recharge period and some other limitation, so lazy players wouldn't just spam them.

Lock on and homing attacks in the real world can be stopped by the use of flares and jamming. I would assume the Tsihu have those capabilities or will adapt to them.

 

[Luisedgm]

If you wanted to discuss big red cones than just put that in the title of the thread.

 

[Omnires]

If you wanted to discuss big red cones than just put that in the title of the thread.

You are missing the point of the thread. This an umbrella thread about things science and how we better root game lore and game mechanics to real science to better add to the game immersion. I only used the idea of telegraphs as an example and some people are misinterpreting that as to mean I'm making case for it. When in fact, I'm unbiased about the matter only pointing out the science of how such things would work as will as pointing out how advanced military warfare works.

If you are reading something else into it, it just because of your personal views not mine.

 

[Omnires]

Force is mass times acceleration. So it would nice if you would use things like the thrusters and pile drivers on our mecha to aid us in melee fighting. For example, if you are flying toward that enemy just before landing a punch you'll do more damage than if you were standing still doing the same punch. Although even if you were standing still if you had a pile driver on or in your arms you could active it at right moment to add a lot of extra force to the punch.

This would also work in lessening or avoid taking damage too. As there are a number of ways to absorb, defuses, and redirect oncoming a force. Using a punch as example, one we to minimize damage from it is to move with punch in the same direction at close to the same speed. Lessing the force you take from the hit as there less energy transferred into your body. In effect to take like damage do things like thing bending and falling over with the hit rather than taking it head on. But that is just one example.

This can also be used in weapons. For example, adding thrusters the head of a hammer to give you great speed when you swing it.

 

[TankHunter678]

I said no sutch thing. maybe it looked kinda similar to auto aiming but I didn't intended it to be like auto aiming. I was more in the visual cue direction. A vector that shows the velocity and direction of the enemy, something like that. That would be a neath feature that doesn't add much to the game play but make the game feel more sci-fi.

No, that is still basically auto aiming for the player. Instead of figuring out where to aim themselves they aim at the box/arrow ahead of the target. Only missing when the target decides to stop moving causing the lead box to change.

You see it quite often in air combat games, there was also a World of Warships mod that did it, and people become so dependent on the aim lead that when it disappears they cannot hit anything because they do not know how to aim themselves.

Players should learn how their weapon functions, get accustomed to the speed of their projectiles, and learn how to intuitively aim their weapon to land hits. That helps develop their skills as a player.

 

[Omnires]

No, that is still basically auto aiming for the player. Instead of figuring out where to aim themselves they aim at the box/arrow ahead of the target. Only missing when the target decides to stop moving causing the lead box to change.

You see it quite often in air combat games, there was also a World of Warships mod that did it, and people become so dependent on the aim lead that when it disappears they cannot hit anything because they do not know how to aim themselves.

Players should learn how their weapon functions, get accustomed to the speed of their projectiles, and learn how to intuitively aim their weapon to land hits. That helps develop their skills as a player.

You have some points there. But you overlooking something basic. Different people have a different idea of what "player skill" mean. Does it mean having faster reflexes or better hand-eye coordination? Or does mean being able to out think others or use better tactics and strategy? People will always focus on different things based on their person playing style and personality.

And I've seen both the upsides and downsides of such systems in games. You pointed out some of the downsides already. So I'll point out some of the upsides just as a counter-balance. In games flight combat games and mecha games with targeting systems I've see players become more tactical in how they play both offensively and defensively. Some players try to fool the predictive models but wildly and randomly changing speed and direction to make them harder to hit. Other players try to use the system against itself by using things like radar decoys, false echoes, radar jamming chaff, or false ID markers (make yourself appear to be a friendly to their computer and/or make one of their allies appear as enemy.). The upside is that is makes players think more carefully about their actions as they play a mental game of chess on the battlefield. Luring each other into traps (ambushes, mine fields, so on) or pretending your weapons and shields don't work to lull enemy players into a false sense of security.

But anyway, the key is not just to find the right science to explain how such systems would work. But also finding the right balance of things to allow for the most fun without breaking immersion nor the feel of the game. As the subject of things like telegraphs and aiming systems is a vast one. And the key to a great game is picking out elements that work best with the style of game you have and the type of game play to gearing it toward.

 

[DARKB1KE]

Force is mass times acceleration. So it would nice if you would use things like the thrusters and pile drivers on our mecha to aid us in melee fighting. For example, if you are flying toward that enemy just before landing a punch you'll do more damage than if you were standing still doing the same punch. Although even if you were standing still if you had a pile driver on or in your arms you could active it at right moment to add a lot of extra force to the punch.

This would also work in lessening or avoid taking damage too. As there are a number of ways to absorb, defuses, and redirect oncoming a force. Using a punch as example, one we to minimize damage from it is to move with punch in the same direction at close to the same speed. Lessing the force you take from the hit as there less energy transferred into your body. In effect to take like damage do things like thing bending and falling over with the hit rather than taking it head on. But that is just one example.

This can also be used in weapons. For example, adding thrusters the head of a hammer to give you great speed when you swing it.

these are good ideas.

 

[Omnires]

these are good ideas.

The idea is to add more options in combat both to do extra damage and to take less damage if you do things right. The science of combat is a real, you need a know how a bit of physics, biology, and material science.

So, me doing something like spinning and flipping around with a polearm before landing my attack is not just for show. I'm trying to build up as much momentum as possible to add greater force to my attack.

A person who is always being pushed around and is falling over a lot with each hit might not be falling because they are weak, but because they know how to avoid taking damage. “The green reed which bends in the wind is stronger than the mighty oak which breaks in a storm.” In other words, it is better to bend with the force than it is to break trying to resist it.

 

[DropnLock]

The more and more I read this thread, you are trying to use the "basis" of science to add Telegraphing(easy modegameplay) to this game.

I Have played Wildstar and the BIGGEST GLARING thing that drew me away from it was that there was no imminent "danger" when running and killing things. I KNEW what they were going to do and moved out of the way. This made it too easy for me to just run away and wait for them to finish and then finish them off.

My love of Firefall was the lack of telegraphs. I needed to "watch" the enemy, "see" where THEY were aiming and "move" out of the way. This made the game far more challenging to me and more fun. Especially when you have a mob of 5+ Chosen all trying to kill you.You needed to have a bead on most of them, dodge those and hope you wernt killed by the others.

Yes is today's age we have HUDs and Targeting systems to make it easier for the modern soldier to wage war but there is no science that can explain the ability to "know" and "see"(telegraph) where the enemy will strike and move to avoid it. We have to use our own "eyes" to see where the enemy is aiming and then make a snap decision and hope it was the right one.

This thread is simply a way to explain and theorycraft Telegraphing(easy mode gameplay) into a virtual world. I HOPE telegraphing is NOT used in Ember and if it has to be, it ONLY be used for Endgame Bosses

 

[phoenix]

No, that is still basically auto aiming for the player. Instead of figuring out where to aim themselves they aim at the box/arrow ahead of the target. Only missing when the target decides to stop moving causing the lead box to change

Well it really boils down to how you implement it. I find the "shoot here"-boxes to be kinda "mehh...". Just vectors showing the speed and direction of the target is enough. Depending on the bullet speed and the weapon the player has he'll have to figure it out himself how much his shots should lead the target.

 

[Omnires]

The more and more I read this thread, you are trying to use the "basis" of science to add Telegraphing(easy modegameplay) to this game.

I Have played Wildstar and the BIGGEST GLARING thing that drew me away from it was that there was no imminent "danger" when running and killing things. I KNEW what they were going to do and moved out of the way. This made it too easy for me to just run away and wait for them to finish and then finish them off.

My love of Firefall was the lack of telegraphs. I needed to "watch" the enemy, "see" where THEY were aiming and "move" out of the way. This made the game far more challenging to me and more fun. Especially when you have a mob of 5+ Chosen all trying to kill you.You needed to have a bead on most of them, dodge those and hope you wernt killed by the others.

Yes is today's age we have HUDs and Targeting systems to make it easier for the modern soldier to wage war but there is no science that can explain the ability to "know" and "see"(telegraph) where the enemy will strike and move to avoid it. We have to use our own "eyes" to see where the enemy is aiming and then make a snap decision and hope it was the right one.

This thread is simply a way to explain and theorycraft Telegraphing(easy mode gameplay) into a virtual world. I HOPE telegraphing is NOT used in Ember and if it has to be, it ONLY be used for Endgame Bosses

First of all, don't assume you know the minds and hearts of people never met. if I want something I'll say I want it and make it clear I want it. I'm not the type of person who hides my intentions as anyone who spent time trying to know me can tell you. Also as others and I have pointed out before, telegraphing in games is an unbrella term, and every game outside of things like card games and board games have telegraphing in them otherwise how do you know what enemy is thinking or about to do? Any action the enemy makes be it glowing, changing stacnes, making key sound effects, and so in are all telegraphs. For example, the big red "!" over enemies heads in the Metal Gear games is type of telegrah, so is that slight pause and deep breath characters take in 2D fighting games before doing a power attack or combo is a telegrath. If all you think of when someone says "telegrath" is WildStar than you are focusing on just one smell part of the overall subject matter. And this the root of the misunderstanding.

The only reason I keep talking about it is because others are keep bring it up. That some people are trying to project things on to me with wild assumtions. But if all they are going to do it try to dismiss a vailid debate subject based sololy on personal options without offering any sort of alternatives to the problem. That forces people like me to devil's advocate just to try and keep things balanced and valid. So if they are only going to focus on negative views and options, what stance do I have to take to keep the debate balanced and vailid?

A lot of time from what I seen in this thread so far is people misinterpreting each other, as some of them are really on the in agreement with each other about the idea but getting hung up on the details. Because some people are talking about telepths before action happen (the telegraths let you know that the enemy is thinking) and people talking about post action telegraths (that beeping you hear in a cockpit after a missle is fired at you or HUD showing the trajectory of a grenade thrown your way). But this why people should ask other what they mean about something rather than jumping to conclusions and assuming the mean something.

 

[Omnires]

How infinite ammo with no reloading can work.
For guns that use solid ammo, all you need you do is have the loading chamber of the gun have a teleport device in it. So a new round is teleported into the chamber as soon as soon as another round is ready to be loaded.

 

[Pandagnome]

How infinite ammo with no reloading can work.
For guns that use solid ammo, all you need you do is have the loading chamber of the gun have a teleport device in it. So a new round is teleported into the chamber as soon as soon as another round is ready to be loaded.

I read about particles that could be teleported from 1 side to another
this is a interesting for the lower caliber weapons.

What if you could scavenge or retake certain materials from say a special port to be able to recycle and manufacture
various ammo type. These materials can be found e.g. in a rubble of trash, a dead npc, construction yards, research facilities, dead opponent in pvp etc

 

[OziriusSVK]

How infinite ammo with no reloading can work.
For guns that use solid ammo, all you need you do is have the loading chamber of the gun have a teleport device in it. So a new round is teleported into the chamber as soon as soon as another round is ready to be loaded.

Yes we could go with infinite ammo and no reload, but what would happen?

Would you care to stop shooting if enemy is hiding or not in line of sight right now?
Would you care to save your ammo (for next bigger wave of enemies)?
Definetely you would lost one of balance function for powerfull weapons, which otherwise would have longer reload time or smaller magazine size.​

So my opinion is that some gameplay mechanics are there (like reload), because they are essential for balanced and challenging gameplay.

 

[Omnires]

I read about particles that could be teleported from 1 side to another
this is a interesting for the lower caliber weapons.

What if you could scavenge or retake certain materials from say a special port to be able to recycle and manufacture
various ammo type. These materials can be found e.g. in a rubble of trash, a dead npc, construction yards, research facilities, dead opponent in pvp etc

Like having a 3D printer inside the gun itself? That works too. All you would need to do is feed the gun the right things to make rounds and it can do so endlessly. Even more so if it is about to transmute one element into another. Then you be able just up anything you want into the gun, even dirt, and it'll change that into the bullet.

Add that with the teleport / pocket dimension idea of how we change weapons. And you can have guns with unlimited ammo.