DevTracker

Ronyn

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Jul 26, 2016
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#20
Clearly it wasn't talked about it enough, because I think breaking should be a thing.

If my T.H.M.P.R. MEK-A can be destroyed (which must be possible, or there is no risk to balance reward) then the rest of my gear should be up for destruction as well. Maybe the base level (is that an Omni-Frame?) should not be, but every other vehicle, and it's weapons, should be up for explosive goodness.

I'd suggest that this is far from threshed out.
Howdy. I can answer some questions on this.
Grummz spoke to this in The original fundraiser. The official descision is that your primary gear (the omniframe) will not perma-break, though it will need to be repaired. Potentially costly repairs provide ample reason to avoid personal damage or death.

Various other things can break (that may or may not include the thmpr mek) which will provide the needed churn in the economy and keep crafters crafting.

For the game history buffs -This design direction is more inline with Grummz original vision of firefall. Remember that it was meant to be a war game originally. There was always meant to be a wide variety of things (tanks, dropships, etc) that are destroyable outside of any need to apply that to the players worn gear. Unfortunately when the larger variety of things was never implemented, the team chose to increase the drain from gear alone leading to full on worn gear item destruction. This was their attempt to balance the economy. Internally Grummz pushed against that decision at the time.

In the case of Ember, Grummz and the rest of the team are going into it with the full goal of getting that larger variety of things involved. Including bases that can be built and destroyed which I am particularly excited about. This is a game about war. As Embers proclaimed genre, massive planetary wargame, makes clear.

I think when we get to see it all working together most of us will be pretty happy with it.
 

Ronyn

Commander
Staff member
Community Manager
Director of Marketing and Community
Jul 26, 2016
724
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#21
My point was moreso that the pursuit of balance is less a "every option is perfectly equal" and more "everything has a purpose and will be useful".
Bingo.
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Let's examine how that applies to the general subjects of customization and balance using a more extensive example for illustration.

I'll use warframe as the game and a hypothetical player named Bob.

Let's say there is a guy named Bob who has a frost prime. It's fully forma'd, set up with tons of the best mods and Arcanes, all tuned for frosts potential strengths and weaknesses. And he even got some of the fancy cosmetics of every type. Both from in game and tennogen. (Warframe is making a lot of money off of cosmetics)

It's well known that frost is most optimal in modes where the goal is defend a point or object. So in those modes Bob's frost is highly sought after by even the most discerning, endurance run players.

Bob also knows how to make a solid crowd control build with frost (the optimal potential frost has with CC) for those missions where defending a point is less important than moving around and disabling enemies, though it's not the best at that compared to some other frames of the game but then who says bob necessarily has any of the frames with better CC? Bob also knows how to make a burst damage build with frost (the optimal potential frost has with burst damage) for farming parts/mods/ingredients from certain mission types, it's not the best at that compared to some other frames of the game but then who says bob necessarily has any of the frames with better burst damage? Even if Bob has some other frames are they built up enough? Are they better enough to make Bob use them over his Frost for the situation at hand?

So, what we have here is a situation where Bob's Frost, even though the builds are sub optimal in the grand scheme of the whole game, are optimal for what bob has available to him, meaning it has a purpose and will be useful for Bob.

Are there several build set us for frost that are just plain bad? Yep. Are some just plain sub optimal for frost? Yep. But does that mean they don't have use?
Well did Bob have to mess around and experiment to figure out what builds were better and worse? Potentially yes, as large percentages of people don't just blindly follow someone elses advice without trying their own ideas. More to the point, did Bob have fun experimenting? Meaning that even bad or mediocre builds served a purpose in Bob's overall enjoyment of the game experience. It was a journey of discovery that had value to Bob.

Even if Bob did follow someone elses advice he may have needed some tweaks to make sure it fully fits what works for him. (The warframe community has a lot of common builds but it also shows small variations in them from person to person). Or maybe Bob hates experimentation and just wants to know what to go with. So he hops on the forums or wiki to get build advice. Either reason that brings him to those sites can very well create some engagement in the community. Which is a whole new set of experiences both good and bad. heh

After long periods of playing the game Bob might even know all about which frame is ideal for each situation. Does that mean he is going to go get one or play them? A lot of folks prefer a certain style of play and won't spend much time in other styles.

Plus Bob get's to try a multitude of new combinations every time a new weapon, mod, or arcane gets added to the game. Which adds a certain sense of change through the periods in between the release of new classes. A relatively small addition can have a large effect on creating new experiences. That's the upside, while the downside is that it's hard to balance all this new stuff trickling in like that. Loose one thing to gain another.

If we to discuss how this all relates to the game's difficulty (Warframe ranges from that which is so trivial nearly any reasonable strategy will work to that which is so difficult it pushes for a select set of practically mandatory approachs) there are additional questions. Does Bob mostly play solo? (A large percentage of warframe players do) Is he reliant on P.U.G.s? Does he have a solid group of friends that play together with high coordination? What frames do these other people have, how well equipped are they and how optimal are they for any particular situation? Heck do we even know much time Bob spends playing the harder missions compared to farming easier ones? What is more fun for him?

Alternatively what if the game did not allow Bob much customization, what if he couldn't make those builds that were sub optimal from the game wide perspective but were optimal for what he has? It would only be harder for Bob to deal with situations where a snowglobe focused/point defense Frost is far less effective than a CC or burst damage Frost. And potentially prevented Bob from enjoying a certain journey of discovery. It could limit what he spent time collecting and leveling up, making the game a shorter lived experience. There would also be no new experimentation in between class releases.

Remember what I said about the push and pull of things? It's real. It's important.

Sure, that hypothetical Bob guy isnt everyone. There are some players who have everything and use only the most optimal everything for every scenario. Let's call that guy Jeff. lol. But how many fall into that category? How many don't? The bob's (folks who do the best they can with limited options) and the jeffs (those who have collected tons of stuff) likely make up the two largest percentages of warframes playerbase. How does Bob's playstyle harm Jeffs? How does Jeff's harm bobs? Or perhaps the main point is that both the Bobs and the Jeffs can (and in fact do) coexist in the very same game.
Not to mention those outliers who insist on using certain frames, weapons or builds based on some enjoyment of the playstyle regardless of how sub optimal it is. And those those folks who limit themselves to purposefully increase challenge. Again, folks who coexist in the same game.

You have to factor in things like investment, progression, access, and personality to know what kind of things can "have a purpose and be useful" and define the term "optimal" in practice.....Note the difference between "in theory" and "in practice" largely come down to how a person will actually interact with the game.

Now I know you never said anything like "Bob can't enjoy himself if he doesn't have the most optimal, overall build to play X" or that "Only in a balanced system can Bob have a good time".... but I hope I am making it clear what this is all about. An overall enjoyable game experience. Which leads me to the end here.

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Ultimately I want to point out a rather interesting thing. Yes, Warframe has tons of "balance" problems and inconsistencies. I personally have a HUGE issue with how warframe is "balanced", I think it needs some real attention there...I mean would less throw away mods/powers among the myriad of warframes options make it even sweeter and maybe even more successful? It very well might. Could it get away with cutting out some of the numerical bloat? It very well might. I could go on about it's flaws there for a long time.
But here is the thing. Warframe is doing quite well as it is. It's a fact.
Despite it's many problems Warframe is a highly successful game that has been able to grow quite a bit. It has managed to retain large chunks of players for long periods of time. Remember that DE started with a very small team on Warframe. It's staff grew because the game allowed for/called for it's growth.

Objectively speaking: It would be wonderful if Ember could grow to achieve the same level of commercial and financial success that Warframe has.

So here is a very important question. Is Warframes extensive customization (flawed as it is) one of the reasons why it (Warframe the game and DE the company) has done so well? Personally, I believe that it is.

Disclaimers:
-Do not mistake any of what I explained above to mean that games with strict, low/no customization systems cannot also be successful. They certainly can be. There are many paths to success.
-While there may be a few things to learn from Warframes rise to success, do not think I'm suggesting that Ember should try to directly copy Warframe in any way. It is merely an example of a game with rather extensive customization options that we have both played. I have always viewed the idea of a massive planetary wargame ,what firefall was meant to be and what Ember will be, as a far more appealing concept than warframes mission based system. An M.P.W. has far more potential to be great. We just need the execution to see it through to greatness. If you ask me, we will have it.
-I am aware that Warframe is a class based game so using it as an example to sort of champion the values of a hypothetical class-less game is limited. Though warframes example does serve as a good base to talk about the larger concepts at play here (balance, customization, expression, etc).

At the end of the day each type of system has advantages and disadvantages.
What you gain in one system you loose in another and vice versa. Which is why I think it's best to view this issue less as a which system is "better or worse" and view it more as which system "offers X as opposed to Y". The history of gaming has taught us that there is value in that.

PS: if you're going to write a large reply I request that you use spoilers to limit the space it takes up. Thank you.
 

Ronyn

Commander
Staff member
Community Manager
Director of Marketing and Community
Jul 26, 2016
724
2,706
93
#57
Thanks!

@Ronyn

Mmm....just had an urge to erase the weapon's gun-part, barrel...etc. and turn the sword into a full great-sword. Like a large gladius or something.
Sounds quite interesting. I'd like to see that.