THMPR Encounter FF BETA vs Em8ER

[PartTimeJedi]

Ive been thinking a lot about the THMPR encounter in Em8ER compared to the FF BETA THMPR encounter. Ive noticed a few things.
In the FF THMPR encounter it was our job to protect the THMPR while continually larger waves of creatures tried to destroy it. In Em8ER I am assuming this will eventually take place also as the Devs update the AI and add more creatures etc.
BUT, in FF the fun exciting part of the THMPR encounter was accomplished because of certain game mechanics that I am not sure Em8ER will have. In FF the THMPR was the carrier of the resources, it also had a percentage counter that made you fight until 100% full in order to get ALL the resources. If you sent the THMPR away to soon you would only receive a small percentage of the resources it mined.

In Em8ER, as far as we know ATM, the THMPR is just a tool that throws up the resources and it is our job to collect them.
The problem with this, as I see it, having the player collect the resources in Em8ER takes away that old excitement felt in FF of fighting against not only the mobs of creatures, but the percentage timer on the THMPR also.
In Em8ER with the player collecting the resources it kinda feels like the THMPR is expendable.
I know game mechanic are coming in Em8ER where the THMPR will have a health bar and the longer you protect your THMPR the quality of resources will go up. BUT without any worry of losing your already collected resources (meaning the player already has picked them up) I see players just continuing the THMPR encounter until the THMPR itself is destroyed and just picking up the higher quality resources it dug before it was destroyed.

I personally would LOVE to replicate the FF THMPR experience in Em8ER with the THMPR holding the resources instead of the player picking them up. Having a storage capacity percentage counting up to 100% until your THMPR is full. Give the player the option to send the THMPR back so you can fight and push your luck to not only get ALL the resources but the higher quality ones that are dug up from 90%-100% on the THMPR capacity meter.

The excitement of FF Thumping was pushing yourself during the encounter then slamming that SEND THMPR AWAY button at the very last second possible. In order for this to work In Em8ER the THMPR would need to rocket up out of harms way when you send it away and hover until picked up by the dropship.

These are just some ideas on how the excitement felt in FF THMPing could be replicated in Em8ER. I know these are 2 different games, but there is a reason many of us spent countless hundreds of hours THMPing in FF BETA. It was the design of the game mechanics during the encounter that made it addicting, exciting and replayable.

 

[zdoofop]

I believe Grummz said the idea of picking up the resources was that you would put them in your THMPR's container afterwards.

 

[PartTimeJedi]

I believe Grummz said the idea of picking up the resources was that you would put them in your THMPR's container afterwards.

Im pretty sure that idea was an old one that got changed along the development process. Another original idea was the THMPR had to be escorted to a dump location, which also got scrapped along the development process.

 

[Pandagnome]

What if you had both

- Mobile thumpr
This is used for short collections with a lower risk value
Could be used as a defensive thumpr to help stationary thumpr


- Stationary thumpr
This is used for longer collections with a higher risk value
More vulnerable to attacks needs baby sitting


I feel they could compliment each other sometimes its more fun to wonder around and collect while things happen around and other times to gather more with a stationary thumpr and get more of that ff chaos.

 

[liandri]

The THMP-R encounter (or the mining of resources really) as it exists in the dev builds could do with a bit more realism, and the FF thumper felt like it had that somewhat. You could easily think about the thumper as a vertical mining machine that mined deeper into the earth to extract more resources, whereas the THMP-R kinda drills the top soil and gives you shiny rocks. I'd love to see it sit in one place for a longer period of time, drill extending deeper into the dirt instead. You get some basic resources, then when it reaches max depth, some rarer resources and moves to a new position. You'd get more and more each time until the node expires, you retreat or die against the Kaiju.

As for collection, I don't mind picking the resources up since we're defending and remaining close to the THMP-R anyway. I thought they had mentioned a collection drone or something, but the Vision Book is 9 months out of date now, so who knows.

What if you had both
- Mobile thumpr
This is used for short collections with a lower risk value
Could be used as a defensive thumpr to help stationary thumpr
- Stationary thumpr
This is used for longer collections with a higher risk value
More vulnerable to attacks needs baby sitting

That's neat, like different types of THMP-R encounters you can call down based on the situation (like the personal/squad thumpers?).

 

[GeyserGod]

That's neat, like different types of THMP-R encounters you can call down based on the situation (like the personal/squad thumpers?).

I like the ability to differentiate Thumping encounters like that. One of the things I thought was done good in FF (though it could have been better) was the thumper set up, where you had Squad thumpers and the solo thumpers with tiers 1-3 with recommended number of players for the squad being 5 and your tech level matching the thumber tier. so if you called down a tier 3 squad thumper you would either need a really large group or the recommended 5 players with tier 3 gear

 

[Pandagnome]

Another thought

What if our thumpr's do not explode right away, as an example say your team is wiped out the first time
the tsihu wouldn't want to destroy the amazing resources they could take it back right?

So lets

A few things could happen

- Several Tsi hu grapplers could latch on to the thumpr and drag it back to the their base to deconstruct and use the resources and parts to improve on their base

- A kaiju could attempts to break the thumpr and consume the resources though some device then it would change to a higher category from the resource boost it has gained

- They use the damaged thumpr as a trap preparing an ambush for the reapers!

- The mobile thumpr is hacked and could attack you/team this would mean you have to disable mobile thumpr and hack it back or worst case destroy it & that could mean losing on a thumpr and the resources gained.

- They may just ignore it and leave the thumpr, this could give time to repair the thumpr temporarily and get help from some land vehicles. To take it back to the nearest outpost to properly get it fixed.

Sometimes this needs to be done because the dropship may not be able to come to that area due to the storms or very heavy Anti Air cannons from the tsihu. Also the communication signals may not be good or purposely disrupted and that could also mean the dropship may not know where to go.


There is an iconic picture of a thumpr battling a kaiju


The big advantage of the mobile thumpr is that it can defend itself to a point, what if the thumpr had a resource link.

What i mean by this is an example

You are collecting resources for yourself/team but resources also help the mobile thumpr survive by converting some of the resources into energy back to the mobile thumpr.

If the pilot has collected X amount of resources at the time of the thumpr called you either can link up to the thumpr and give back some resources to give it more of a fighting chance against a kaiju.

There is a certain cap to how much resources it can be given because it was not really designed to use so much resources as energy. Anyway this can buy you some time as it battles the kaiju.

The thought is you can either gain more rewards by the thumpr and yourself/team to defeat this kaiju but you may have to sacrifice some resources to the mobile thumpr for its survival. Alternatively you could let it do its normal thing and collect some small amount.

The THMP-R encounter (or the mining of resources really) as it exists in the dev builds could do with a bit more realism, and the FF thumper felt like it had that somewhat. You could easily think about the thumper as a vertical mining machine that mined deeper into the earth to extract more resources, whereas the THMP-R kinda drills the top soil and gives you shiny rocks. I'd love to see it sit in one place for a longer period of time, drill extending deeper into the dirt instead. You get some basic resources, then when it reaches max depth, some rarer resources and moves to a new position. You'd get more and more each time until the node expires, you retreat or die against the Kaiju.

Yes that could be good what if the drill segment of the thumpr decides how effective to drill is as an example, in drill tools you could have different drill heads for the job.

What if the thumpr drill segments could provide e.g. drill segment A can drill to depth of 10 - 30m and drill segment B to depth of 40 - 70m etc etc

That way you can have some control of the depth and this could also lead to the time and chance of resource you could earn. This also works well with the risk reward meaning more powerful drills could go further and more dangerous!

That could also lead to the chance if you go too far drilling it could get stuck or even go into an underground network where you could find yourself in even more of a situation!!!

I thought they had mentioned a collection drone or something

I'd like a collection drone very handy especially when your preoccupied as an example in warframe like my pet sentinel always collects things for me and use a radar thing to find hidden treasures too.

 

[PartTimeJedi]

Breaking it down to the Basic Gameplay loop I really liked the "all or nothing" Closed Beta THMPING. That thrill of fighting while keeping an eye on both THMPR damage AND Capacity.
You either fought till 100% capacity on the THMPR before launching it to get ALL the resources... or it gets destroyed and you receive nothing... or you only got a small percentage of the load if launched under 100%.
But this would involve a complete reworking of the current Em8er THMPR mechanics where the THMPR would need-
A) to collect and hold resources
B) Need a health bar
C) Need a capacity percentage meter
D) Some way for the player to control WHEN to launch the THMPR up out of harms reach, until picked up by drop ship.

I do think this COULD BE accomplished without getting in any legal trouble with the FF people.
And I only wrote this thread because I think the Em8ER THMPR encounter needs to just as addicting, repeatable and fun as the FF BETA version.

 

[Wyntyr]

The THMPR encounter has to be different enough(?) from FF to stay away a potential lawsuit. Now how much different overall and/or specifically different I do not know. I like a number of the suggestions for sure and I believe it'll be as close to the FF feel as it can be. Do remember though that this is not FF and can not be FF.

 

[Shanie]

I think not having to completely monitor the THMPR or you lose everything is actually an advantage to gameplay, and let me explain a bit why.

Chiefly, the most major advantage is that you don't have to have a 'wave defense' style gameplay loop which honestly can get very repetitive. Instead, you can have a far more dynamic gameplay loop, where yes some might be wave defense, but some may also be "special Tsi Hu is creating a rift, at least one of you must scout out and destroy this rift else it will bring in more Tsi Hu." This can also change based on where the THMPR has patroled. Flat ice sheets have different gameplay elements than hills with good cover. Sniping Tsi Hu could spawn which would pull you away from the THMPR, stuff like that.

I feel the more dynamic the encounter, the less worry you'll have over the THMPR being the sole pillar to defend.

 

[liandri]

Instead, you can have a far more dynamic gameplay loop, where yes some might be wave defense, but some may also be "special Tsi Hu is creating a rift, at least one of you must scout out and destroy this rift else it will bring in more Tsi Hu." This can also change based on where the THMPR has patroled. Flat ice sheets have different gameplay elements than hills with good cover. Sniping Tsi Hu could spawn which would pull you away from the THMPR, stuff like that.

I feel the more dynamic the encounter, the less worry you'll have over the THMPR being the sole pillar to defend.

This x 100. The AI commander should have an idea of the environment, how many reapers are in the area, which equipment you use and what you're after, and make a judgement on strategy and amount of force used. Perhaps if you kept beating them back, they send a death squad after you or to the base outside of the encounter as retribution.

 

[Pandagnome]

This is interesting topic so had to look at other games with similar to the firefall thumpr and other ways for resource mining.


Warframe - Excavation

Close to the thumpr style

warframe - Mining

Not your thumpr but a handheld device to obtain resources out of rocks

Deep Rock Galactic - On site refining

The player is the driller but provides the refinery with a collection of resource to send off

Deep Rock Galactic - Escort Duty

Mobile drill needs goes its own way needs to be defended and refueled when run out of fuel.

Breaking it down to the Basic Gameplay loop I really liked the "all or nothing" Closed Beta THMPING. That thrill of fighting while keeping an eye on both THMPR damage AND Capacity.

Like in these games mentioned what if we could have various ways of doing this

e.g.

1) Thumpr mek (Duration option)
After the A.I phase of drilling that is done how about it pops up a window on your screen vote continue drilling or go back home and you can vote.

Means you can have the choice of continuing to drill with a greater risk such as if a kaiju appears you got to start to defend the thumpr and yourself also the risk of losing all that you aquired could be gone


2) Multi spider thumprs
On a smaller scale the spider thumprs are smaller in size but together equal to 3/4 of a standard thumpr. They come in a pack there is 7 as an example each spider thumpr can collect certain amount you can release 1 or even 7. The Issue here is will you be able to protect all 7 and gain all the nice rewards or play it safe with smaller gains


3) Thumpr Escape
Some where located is a heavily damaged thumpr you need to get the transport platform to place the thumpr its not your standard thumpr its one of the Alpha Reaper Mk-6 thumpr's you get it to work for a while thumping to fill it up to the max for more bonus or resume to get it back to safety.

With your vehicles you have to guide as safely as possible, watchout the tshi hu may have placed traps and ready to ambush your thumpr. The vital resources is more important for the whole biome if it gets into the tsihu hands they will have an advantage of creating stronger beasts and defenses.

4) Under water thumpr
Unknown to some are unique rare items in the darkest depths of the waters, you wont be able to use your standard meks you will require the Deep Diver Meks DDM's

Underwater has a host of hostiles and since the sea is much water, the electric conducting through it is much greater, The DDM's can tolerate some electricity but too much and it could be destroyed, your aim is to defend it while going deeper and deeper the more further you go the more pressure is built

Taking into accout the oxygen, pressure gauge and electric threshold, once you feel its time make sure to grapple to the DDM and activate the escape protocol you and the DDM will fire out of the water to safety and the DDM will vanish to safety leaving you enough time to glide


5) Thumpr OVERdrive
Your thumpr has an issue its going to EXPLODE :OOOO its on a timer ofc it is!
Thats not all, your drilling is much greater you can thumprrrrrrrr OVERDRIVE much more goodies

Solo or in a team must avoid the thumpr getting too much damage and its bye bye thumpr!

There is a catch ooh yess another one of those, if the health is down to 25% it wont work nothing one of the pilot's must go inside to manual override the mek you will be at the most riskiest time low health and the thought of KABLEWWy in the back of your mind.

If you manage to defend well and the pilot controlling the thumpr you then head back to the nearest safe zone get the bomb defused and you can all be pleased you have now not only got the achievement
Kaboom Preventer, you also have nice resources well done!

 

[chalk#4300]

Maybe there's a way to get the best of both worlds.

You could change/modify the giant cartoon drill to something that looks more suited to extended vertical mining. Then the THMPR would take much longer to get at any given resource node, and couldn't move or defend itself while digging. You could still call off the operation at any time and it would immediately start defending itself again, though all the health it lost while mining would remain gone.

That way it would effectively function as a FF thumper, keeping the same risk/reward gameplay, except more mobile and suited to extended use - if the player(s) have the chops to keep it safe.

There was also mention of multiple THMPR designs, so maybe there's some room to experiment with different types of challenges when it comes to mining.

 

[Gyrus]

I'd rather have old style thumping and i'm hoping that someone replicates it in Core.

 

[ScorpyX]

Maybe there's a way to get the best of both worlds.
... change/modify the giant cartoon drill...
... couldn't move or defend itself while digging...
... You could still call off the operation at any time...
... though all the health it lost while mining would remain gone...
[ risk/reward gameplay ]

sound like very good Design - i love it
I have same feelings about current cartoon drill mecha
it will be ok for small personal risk/reward gameplay

but for team coop event i want to see Giant Mine Mecha
with good visual mechanical design
Which will completle transform in stationaty state like Big Building
at specific scan node which cannot be mine by small Mine mecha

Drill is most basic visual association with mining
but for giant Mecha Transform state it can be giant Laser beam down to ground
We at Future after all

Mecha even visually can be more like a Spider or Quadropod
its not suppose to be always a human silhouette
it can be visual mix of some Animal with Industrial design



mine with giant mecha can be multi-staged
for example players cant drop it right on Mining node
so its needs to be deployed far from it
- approach to mine node with battle against enemy
- even transformation to Mining state can takes time (which will adds to Tension)
- it will begin mine with risk/reward concept (zero health will destroy all resources)
- Transform back to Movement state
- Evacuation to rescue Location

PS. but as player i will be glad even with just risk/reward concept with any shity mining visual
Does not matter how it will looks like or which action will be required
all i want is Coop Teamplay Tension and Gameplay Flow state...

and yeah - big character even human-like is real pain to develop
because a lot of problems with collision, ai navigation, legs placement etc...

 

[ScorpyX]

from Discord 22.05

► Question (from Grummz): Does anyone know why we pick up resources?
Grummz: To create an element of risk and reward that gives players a reason to engage the enemy on the ground.

yeah... i dont feel this "risk" part...

 

[liandri]

yeah... i dont feel this "risk" part...

Neither, at least, not yet. In the current design, it seems like thumping will be better suited for certain frames and builds over others. A long range sniper in a light frame might not handle the encounter as well as a heavy frame bulwark built for point defence.

But I suppose that's where the skill comes in. We'll have to wait and see, but I'd prefer to have the option of a drone that collects resources.

 

[Valaetoshiru]

I think thumpers will only be one way to earn resources. Think of thumpers more of a dynamic event rather than resource getting. ✌️

 

[Pandagnome]

What if our thumprs are part of alternate events that lets say there is some serious overflow in the pipes and you are going to need to drain the sludge or else the place or building would be full of this sludge and hardens like a concrete trapping you!

So the thumpr would need to drill areas to drain this sludge stuff away but there are issues such as tsihu appearing trying to slow you down. Also pipes may burst that need fixing otherwise it causes the flow of sludge and poops and electrical charges from the broken wiring need to be fixed or it will reduce the shields.

During all this chaos the thumpr is vitally important to help you escape if it poops you got to fix it.

If you manage to drain enough of the sludge you can escape through the tunnels or one of those pipes that have cut the supply. It may be very dark and some of the sludge can appear to glow giving a small light source.

Have to figure a way to escape without alerting anymore, and once you escape either you have to reclaim this place back or construct a super boom explision. To put it in the pipes then seal it so that the tsihu cannot advance and part of their underground network is slowed down for now!

Thought this is good because thumprs could also be for defense and there is a poster of a thumpr against a kaiju which makes me think they are not only for mining too.