RNGs don't really exist

[Omnires]

As some of you many know I hate random number generators in games. I find them both lazy and pointless. Party because you are rewarding and punishing people based on something they have no control over, their luck. I hate luck based systems in games because there is no skill in them and personally I have a long record of losing an abnormally amount of times for something that is meant to be "random" (like 9.5 times out of 10). So can we stop adding them to games and please let skill and mastery always win.

P.s. I'm totally on posting this after I ran a long dungeon and kill a boss 20 times in a row for an item I want and friend got said item on her first run of that dungeon ever because she didn't know about the hidden bosses.

 

[Torgue_Joey]

The only thing that can get close to a true random number generator, is an external hardware device (not a program, no pc. But an extra device no smaller than a shoebox. Only the biological brain can truly generate a random number with 1 persisting problem, we can never tell if it was really random or not.

 

[Daevic]

I find that skill and mastery system has 2 problems that can come up, as much as I agree with you and I'd love to see it done right AND that ive been on the raw end of the RNG gods a number of times. But with skill and mastery comes the following issues:

The elite few: You get people who are just to highly geared that they get all the items and non-guilded newbies just cannot get anything, unless its something no one wants. Unless a newbie is really really good.

Healers: Skill and mastery is usually based on kills and damage dealt, which would alienate healers. Adding healers leaves a problem, they can just stand there constantly healing people and always be at the top of the list, if its heals / damage taken, healers are back to being at a disadvantage because they may not have much to heal if mobs die fast.

These are the reasons I find a skill and mastery system usually struggles and becomes an RNG system or a system where everyone gets an item.

 

[Vladplaya]

Rng is fine when used properly, because it can add a feeling of suspension, which in some cases can be good.

For example having reasonable rng for some minor quests is not terrible. Like it makes no difference to me if I have to kill 100 with guaranteed drop rate of the item, or 80 to 120 with the rng drop rate.

Also I like positive rng, for example, you crafting something and the crafting system itself has no rng in it, so depending on the resources you use, you know exactly what you will get, BUT there is a slight chance that one of the stats will get a minor boost in the process of crafting. So this is just an extra bonus that doesn't hurt anything, if you get it, great, if you don't, it's fine because you still got the item you were crafting.

So just minor things that don't make the game painful and frustrating.

 

[NoahDVS]

To be fair, that video isn't really justification for completely doing away with RNGs. It's been known for a long time that computers don't generate truly random numbers. They use seed generators and do some complex calculations based on the seeds. However, for the average player who is not using external programs to predict the outcome...

Random numbers from 1-100:
35
97
44
62

Is the 5th number predictable? These numbers were generated by a guessing game I made in C++. The seeds are from std::time(nullptr). This is one of the simplest RNGs you can make. For something like Valve's TF2 crates, CSGO cases or whatever DotA2 has, it's probably a lot more complicated.

 

[NitroMidgets]

Can we agree that any RNG used by Ubisoft is just shit?

 

[Omnires]

I just hate having to rely on luck for something that should be simple to do with it. To me having RNGs for rewards and loot drops is pointless and lazy on the part of the devs. And it is somethings I've only see a few games try to pull away from. Granted there is still RNG in the system but it is made less random by asking what reward you are looking before starting the mission or event and along as you minimum amount of work to get that reward you are guaranteed to get that thing on top of any other RNG reward. This kind of works to help people who, like me, have a history of never getting what they want from RNG because they alway lose at it or only get useless things to them (I'm warrior class what I'm going to do priest robes?).

The other thing I hate about RNG is when the devs set loot tables way too low be useful to anyone. Like the drop rate for this item is only less than 1%. I understand they want that item to be rare but the logic behind it is dumb. I want this sword, the sword has a 1% drop rate on its loot table of 20 items, may as well state "Sorry, but only people born under a lucky star and never had to work for anything can get this item." for with bad luck because if the enemy is using the sword to attack me why can't I just disarm them and take it will in the fight? What do a magic invisible wolf comes out of nowhere and take the best gear every time I kill something only leaving a few bits of cloth, bones, and gold? I see the sword in the enemies hand just pick it up.

I think everyone with bad luck can relate to this video in some way.

 

[NoahDVS]

I totally understand wanting to do away with the frustration that comes with things that depend on randomness and I'll admit I don't like random rewards that much either, but I feel like you're exaggerating the issue somewhat. I seriously doubt your luck is as bad as you feel like it is. Here's the thing. People who gamble a lot or grind a lot will have the same odds of getting something as someone who gambles or goes for a boss occasionally. A person who does those things a lot feels a lot less lucky than someone who does those things occasionally because grinding does not increase your odds of getting what you want. No matter how many times you roll a pair of virtual dice controlled by a random number generator, your odds of getting a 12 will never go above 1 in 11. In other words, you're probably not any less lucky than anyone else, you're probably just trying too hard or you have unrealistic expectations. This is extremely unfair to those who do put in a lot of effort though, so while it may be effective in keeping an item from becoming too common, there are definitely better ways to give players loot that they actually need.

 

[Earth_Soldier]

I'm playing Dragon Age: Inquisition atm due FireFall is no more, there is supposed to be a rare ring to heal you 5% per hit (awesome for any rogue/mage in the game due there is no form of healing magic and your healing potions are limited to only 8 during any fight be it against a normal group of mobs or bosses). The ring is supposed to appear as a rare chance in a NPC vendor in one of the cities of the game but only if you unlock certain perk with your main toon.

Well, I've unlocked such perk and every damn time I move around the game world map I always make a visit to such vendor with the hope of getting such rare ring, after more than 300 hours playing I have max level and excelent gear to survive more or less any boss fight but, in my group, someone always dies, be it my rogue mostly of the times (top DPS but very low armor/HP) or my mage rarely (mages can have a barrier to prevent any damage but timing to use it is key, not always you can have it up in time), a certain death if you are fighting against any of the almighty dragons bosses that have very high damage and can destroy barriers with a single hit. At this point I can tell you I hate so much my "bad luck" so as any damn form of RnG...

It's more, any chest in the game randomize his loot every time you revisit the map and always if you leave at lest 1 item inside it, well if the RnG says you get zero as a result of the damn randomization you lose that chest forever because it will get locked as if you got all the items from it. Destroying any possibility of getting an upgrade for gear if you are playing in the latest maps / dungeons.

In regards to FireFall, everyone who knows me there actually knows my really bad luck and the only way to fight against it was dumping hours and hours of endless grind, something that in the end forced me to fall again into deep depression after seeing how any other player was getting the items I was looking for after only a couple of tries. One of the worst times were during Kanaloa raids... just remembering such bad times gives me chills and really bad memories... how many fights that stupid raid has provoked I lost count long time ago.

 

[Omnires]

I totally understand wanting to do away with the frustration that comes with things that depend on randomness and I'll admit I don't like random rewards that much either, but I feel like you're exaggerating the issue somewhat. I seriously doubt your luck is as bad as you feel like it is. Here's the thing. People who gamble a lot or grind a lot will have the same odds of getting something as someone who gambles or goes for a boss occasionally. A person who does those things a lot feels a lot less lucky than someone who does those things occasionally because grinding does not increase your odds of getting what you want. No matter how many times you roll a pair of virtual dice controlled by a random number generator, your odds of getting a 12 will never go above 1 in 11. In other words, you're probably not any less lucky than anyone else, you're probably just trying too hard or you have unrealistic expectations. This is extremely unfair to those who do put in a lot of effort though, so while it may be effective in keeping an item from becoming too common, there are definitely better ways to give players loot that they actually need.

I understand what you are saying. And I understand how odds work. But it is not an exaggeration when I say I have abnormally high bad luck when comes to RNGs in games. Really I'll spend months trying to get one thing I really want/need in a game grinding for it for hours on in end only to come out never getting what I want. But friends and guild mates get the item within a few tries or a few days (about 3 to 7 days) of trying, meanwhile I'll be going on month 4 of trying and still have not gotten that I want. In games of luck seems like 9 times out of time 10 I'm the loser. This why I like games of skill over games of luck. Because my skills can overcome any bad luck I may have, in fact at this point in my life kind of count it. As in some games it seems bosses attack patterns change when I'm around, if I had a coin for every time someone said something like "I never seen a boss use that attack before." or "Wow, I never seen boss spam it's super attack that many times in a row on one person." I would be rich.

The only upside to my bad luck is that forces me to master parts of games other people don't think about because the game doesn't seem to have a personal vendetta against them. But no matter how good of a player I may be it is never reflected in the rewards I get. It is part of the reason why in some games I'm a high level person who still runs around in basic and/or newbie gear. It not because I want to but because I have too, as the good things never drop for me or I always lose the loot roll.

 

[Cadbane]

If items are suppose to be rare or epic, it should be because of the way they are attained. AKA the things you have to do to get them. Ex: Complete quests, upgrade skills, master skill challenges, have final boss kill wins, etc. The rarer or more epic it is the harder these quests should be, the higher the skill level you need, the tougher the challenges become, more obstacles to over come. If it is epic because it has a 1% drop rate, drops from one event, that takes 20 people too kill, who you know will all want it, throw in a lock out on a timer on the event and welll ..... We are done before we started.

 

[DARKB1KE]

RNG is supposed to lengthen gameplay because it keeps people coming back for more, aka your basic gambling. You have to understand the mechanics behind it and what the ultimate goal is, and usually that goal is to keep players logged in, or to keep chasing until they get the perfect stats/numbers/items.

Repeatable content no longer becomes repeatable when you have a guaranteed outcome or item at the end. You would play that content once and be done with it forever.

People may complain about RNG but at the same time they would also complain if there was nothing to do and no reason for playing the game (because they got all the good items 1st try).

 

[Omnires]

RNG is supposed to lengthen gameplay because it keeps people coming back for more, aka your basic gambling. You have to understand the mechanics behind it and what the ultimate goal is, and usually that goal is to keep players logged in, or to keep chasing until they get the perfect stats/numbers/items.

Repeatable content no longer becomes repeatable when you have a guaranteed outcome or item at the end. You would play that content once and be done with it forever.

People may complain about RNG but at the same time they would also complain if there was nothing to do and no reason for playing the game (because they got all the good items 1st try).

The reason to keep playing would be the game is fun even if you got everything you want/need for your perfect build. And this is what some game devs are starting to realize by trying to move away from the RNG lucky based system controlling everything. By not forcing players to grind on endlessly for that one thing they want just because the odds of getting it are super low, players can enjoy the game more because it is not something they are not forced to do. (Part of the reason I loved beta version of FireFall. I kept playing because the game was fun even after at all the epic gear I wanted for my builds.)

And sure you can still make things a bit of grind by saying you are guaranteed to get this item if you can clear the mission/event and make branching paths in it. So if they want everything they have to replay the content and take the different paths. Or you can make them grind by saying you are guaranteed to get this item if you clear the mission/event 5 times or kill all the optional sub-bosses or clear the mission within the time limit. As long as what you are asking them to do is something reasonable they'll be happy to repeat that content if they were unlucky enough not to getting the item as a drop or kept losing the loot rolls.

By guaranteeing everyone will get want they want/need the devs of those games are allowing players to stay with their friends for when the group wants to move on and enjoy themselves. After all how many times can you run the same dungeon or kill the same boss before it becomes super boring? How many times can you ask your friends and guild mates to help you farm for the same untradable item that some of them have already found many times over? Because everyone knows the bests part of any MMO is enjoying gameplay itself and enjoying playing the game with friends. If you know everyone can get the items they want/need in if your group clears the dungeon 4 times while also finding the hidden room to free the prisoners. You just added a fun little side quest for the group to do while they are also doing something else. The room is guaranteed to always show up on every run but where it shows up on the map is random. So who can find the randomly spawning hidden room map first and who can find it most times within the number of runs it'll take for everyone to get what they want/need?

Granted even in the games that you are trying to move away from luck based reward systems there can still be a lot of randomness within the system, but that randomness comes from the challenge of the tasks you ask them to do for the guaranteed rewards you are looking for.

P.S.
Even for the games that keep the same old RNG systems that many games have been using for decades now, they can still find ways to reward unlucky people if they wanted too. Here are 2 examples of this I've seen in a few games.

One of the routes some games go is to make everything in the game craftable. Sure you can get lucky and get that rare item as a drop or mission reward. But for the people who are not lucky they can still craft that item from materials that are guaranteed to drop and/or be rewarded to people who didn't get the rare item. This way everyone can just craft the weapon, armor, gear, and custom they really want/need even if they are unlucky enough never to see it drop from enemies or rewarded in a mission/event.

Another route some games go is to just have NPCs give you special a non-tradable item, like odd coins or vouchers, for doing hard missions for them that can only be used at a special NPC shop where they sell those the same powerful items that can only be found in that dungeon or boss fight. Again for the people who unlucky enough to never get the rare drop or reward from the mission/event itself can still buy it from the special NPC shops with the vouchers.

The JCPenny effect doesn't affect people who, like me, have bad luck with RNG reward systems because this often the only way we can get things without wasting weeks and months grinding for one thing or grind tirelessly for something only to get it after we no longer need it (example, you spend hours spamming and grinding a dungeon for an epic sword. But the one run you finally get it the sword it is no longer of use to you as you out leveled the range in which the sword is needed. So now you below the power curve for next dungeon and your friends are moving on without you.)

 

[Nunaden]

well... i would solve the RNG vs Skill with simple enemies: An enemy can spawn with a normal weapon or with the suppeeeerrr baaaadddddaaaaaassss two hander that is one of the 10 best weapons in the game, BUT *dom dom dooom!* the stats of the gear affect the enemy too whne he has it equipped, like a player, and after 5 seconds you start to hit n run in circles 'cause you just got your normal gear that can't keep up with the "super badass gear!" jsut 'Cause you hadn't enough skill. In the end you would jsut die and you can't get the gear. while teh guy that got more skill and can beat the enemy with the same gear as you will kill the mob and just rip the sword out of its dead fingers. while you can just rip the normal bone knifes out of the hands of the sceletons 'cause your Skill + Gear is just enough to kill something else.

(in short: every mob drops the weapon he uses and gets affected by the weapon stats. and your will fail to kill it cause you hadn't enough skill and the other one will get it cause he had enough skill, even when he has the same gear as you)

 

[Daynen]

On the one hand, I understand why we use RNG systems and I know their place in games. Extra credits did a pair of good videos on smart application of RNG here:

I think that, used responsibly, RNG can and does add suspense, uncertainty, excitement and a healthy dose of calculated risk-taking to games. Note of course that some extrapolation is required when moving from a CCG to a shooter like Ember.

On the OTHER HAND, I can relate to the frustration of RNG by about 10,000%. The most egregious example of terrible, terrible RNG use occurred in the Lich King days of WoW. I encountered a quest in the Badlands (a ~40 something zone) while cruising around with my 80 mage working on my Loremaster title. The quest was to kill elite black drakes and get a black drake heart. No big deal. They drop in two shots, easy. Should be done in like five minutes, ten tops.

...Several days later...

I. Lost. Count. How many THOUSANDS of those things have I killed?! NO HEART. Am I in the right place? Yep. Are these the right mobs? check. Did I misread the quest? I've been reading at college level since I was four; didn't miss a vowel. Is the quest bugged? Nope, working as intended. Mind you, this is not an endgame quest. There's no epic loot that drops from this mob. It's not a rare spawn. There is absolutely nothing special about it. People have won actual, real life lotteries after less attempts. Checking out the datamine on a few sites and getting confirmation from Bliz puts the drop rate at .0001%. YOU ARE READING THAT CORRECTLY. ONE IN TEN THOUSAND CHANCE.

Does this sound like exaggeration? Yes it does. Am I exaggerating? Absolutely not. I know people who have had the same experience from this part of the game; a friend of mine continued to play WoW for years after I quit, farming that spot once every few days for an hour or so, racking up hundreds of drake kills; he never got that drake heart. Also, before you even ask, YES. There WAS that ONE FRIEND who got the drop on his very first kill.

That was the day I quit WoW. I did not break any part of my PC or my house; I am proud of the restraint I showed that day.

This is why I know the danger of relying on RNG and completely relate to the OP's complaints. There is far too much lottery in modern games. It needs to be dialed back; devs need to stop using dice as a crutch to keep players coming back and instead design a game people actually WANT TO PLAY more than once. Keep RNG by all means; it DOES do positive things for a game--in moderation and by very carefully planned design, not tossed in en masse as half the game's allure.

Random ELEMENTS to a game are fine, but when the entire draw of the game is rewards that may or not appear after the first or thousandth playthrough, there is something wrong.

 

[Beemann]

The elite few: You get people who are just to highly geared that they get all the items and non-guilded newbies just cannot get anything, unless its something no one wants. Unless a newbie is really really good.

Item progression, as far as I know, will not be a significant part of Ember. From the sounds of things it'll be an "earn faster/slower depending on skill" thing

Healers: Skill and mastery is usually based on kills and damage dealt, which would alienate healers. Adding healers leaves a problem, they can just stand there constantly healing people and always be at the top of the list, if its heals / damage taken, healers are back to being at a disadvantage because they may not have much to heal if mobs die fast.

You're talking about scoreboards, which is ultimately irrelevant. I could spend all day showing you inaccurate or misleading scoreboards. As far as healers go, healing itself should be skill-based, and limited. Healers should be valued based on their ability to manage their resources and their reliability in healing. In most shooters, healers are valued for their output moreso than their skill

These are the reasons I find a skill and mastery system usually struggles and becomes an RNG system or a system where everyone gets an item.

It becomes a system where everyone gets an item (or has a chance to) because that feeds into a better compulsion loop than "you lost, get better"
RNG is used in systems that want to hit that addictive part of the brain. Everyone get X is to let people feel like they're experiencing the full game, despite the fact that, as a game, they're getting an inferior product


@Daynen
You dont need RNG to provide those things though, you can just withhold intel.
There's really no need to have UI elements that tell you what each enemy can bench and how many living beings have sneezed near you. If you have to rely on your eyes and ears to provide information, you will miss something and it will be a factor in your play session
Look at Metro's ranger mode, STALKER's HUD-devoid mods, Quake's (Quake World, Quake 2-4 MP, Q3 CPM) lack of radar and complimentary sound design, etc

 

[EvilKitten]

I understand what you are saying. And I understand how odds work. But it is not an exaggeration when I say I have abnormally high bad luck when comes to RNGs in games.

I feel your pain. I finally quit playing Dead Zone (flash game) because I got so depressed over the RNG system. They introduced a new set of weapons called uniques, which were super powerful versions but on a very rare drop. Well rare for me at least. Other players were getting 20+ uniques A DAY. I took me something like 8 months before my first dropped, and it ended up being the worst sort of item you could get for a unique. There is a reason why I tend to avoid card/dice games.

 

[Luisedgm]

The only thing that can get close to a true random number generator, is an external hardware device (not a program, no pc. But an extra device no smaller than a shoebox. Only the biological brain can truly generate a random number with 1 persisting problem, we can never tell if it was really random or not.

Not even the human brain can generate a true random number, true randomness does not exist and everything is deterministic (until you start playing at subatomic particle level). Brains are hyper advanced computers, but they both have similar limitations.
Also the human brain is so easy to influence that hypnotists and illusionists can guide your brain to give the response they want and you will think you have full control over that response.