CHIEF CHAT BRIEF SUMMARY FROM TUESDAY, MAY 18, 2021
==== MAIN POINTS ====
► First part of today’s stream Grummz talked about MMO Monetization and how Ashes of Creation's Creative Director SLAMS Amazon's New World.
^ To hear more on this topic, check out the Twitch VOD here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1027070004
==== Special Section This Stream: MONETIZATION ====
► In the old days, you had subscription-based only models and a box model.
► There is a tremendous amount of money to be made in after-sale monetization of games but, especially MMOs.
► If you sell cosmetics or if you sell gachas, you generate a ton of revenue.
► If you go the way of gachas, it's easily 10 times the revenue you get from out of box games.
► If you do cosmetics at all, it's easily 70% of sales are going to be from after the box.
► MMOs have huge ongoing costs for things like servers, bandwidths, and all this sort of stuff; and those costs have been coming down but MMOs are are also getting more complex.
► MMOs that generate higher revenue can put out more content and newer features at a much faster rate. That is why good revenue is important.
► Em-8er, is a very complicated game. Its servers will need to be high speed and therefore cost more. In our example, we've said we're going to sell cosmetics not gachas.
► Em-8er plans to sell the box at a high indie price and have an optional subscription model for cosmetics at a lower price than if purchased individually; as well as expansions and DLC that will be crowdfunded.
► There's an interesting problem if MMOs just go the subscription route. If they don't sell cosmetics after the game, they're going to have a hard time competing.
► Level boosts in MMOs suck away the entire point of the game. It devalues the player's contribution towards their character and any personal growth in the game.
► If MMOs remove the time element and the progression element, it becomes a dead MMO.
==== Special Section This Stream: HARDCORE vs CASUAL ====
► Games make a trade-off between older players with less time but more disposable income versus the younger players with more time and less disposable income.
► MMOs have to decide whether they want to make higher quality games but less money by choosing to avoid the mass market (analogy of Armani suits vs. Old Navy suits).
► Blizzard initially wanted to capture the hardcore gamers and the casual-hardcore gamers ("The Doughnut Theory").
► Going for a mass market appeal with the more casual gamer audience may make more money upfront, but could increase production costs because MMOs are chasing content updates with no social aspects.
► You can do things to mitigate the time sink.
► Guild activities require a lot of synchronous game play.
► The world has moved to an asynchronous style; at least on the internet.
► We need an asynchronous way to socialize in games and an asynchronous way to do guild events.
► Being able to socialize, with other people, asynchronously is where we need to be.
► So when I talk about the Firefall armies, or the Houses in Em-8er that we'll be rolling out after launch, I talk about how guild goals need to be distributed goals. It's not centered around raid activity. It's centered around players contributing on their own when they CAN. And seeing the overall progress together without forcing everyone to be online at the same time at the exact same moment.
==== Special Section This Stream: Where does Grummz stand on Monetization? ====
► Where do I stand on Monetization? I don't like loot boxes. I don't like convenience boosts either.
We did those in Firefall. In Firefall, players could pay to speed up crafting and loot boxes. It makes game designers design games to suck in order to drive players to monetization. I want to make games because I want to entertain and I want to make something fun and engaging. I don't want to choose a monetization model that make me make the game worse just to sell more.
► That being said, I have no problem with after-market sales and cash shops because that's the reality of the world we live in. If you want your game to survive and compete and be as well supported in features as well as everybody else's, you need another source of revenue beyond just the box sales.
► So what we've chosen (in Em-8er) is, non-gacha cosmetics that you can either unlock and earn in-game, and that are seasonal. That is very important to keep the rarity up, to keep the desire for these skins up to make sure you get the most out of a skin because they're expensive to create.
► I don't like anything that boosts XP.
► Em-8er is not going to compete with the big casual MMOs such as WoW or Final Fantasy. That's not our thing. And if we tried that, we'd fail because we're a small team and we have limited resources. So we're going for the niche MMO market; those who want the sci-fi world of shooter based combat, high mobility, mechs versus giant monsters and kaiju, things like that. That is what we have to go for and they're going to be a bit more of a hardcore audience.
► We're doing some things that are different from other MMOs to keep costs down for Em-8er:
^ We're always going to be in virtual offices and that's a huge cost we don't have to deal with.
^ Another thing is we're focusing on dynamic content, emergent player game play, socialization factors, and events versus static content that you run through.
^ For us, the game is not about end level raids. It's not about racing to the top of the tech-tier. It's about living this sci-fi world. It's about expanding the world and making it bigger through player activity, and actually changing the world as you go. Then fighting to defend it from the NPCs who are trying to change it the other direction.
► The thumper encounter idea I had in Firefall was originally planned to be a mini-game which changed the higher level of encounter it was. For Em-8er, the dynamic encounter has a progression to it. So it's not always the same. There is something new that happens along the way the more you do it.
==== IN-PROGRESS ====
► Did everyone like the tuning of the glider so far? Please give us your feedback on the forums! https://forums.em8er.com/threads/glider-tuning-build-phase-1-feedback-thread.1965/#post-62551
► This week the Dev Team is working on a phase 2 of the glider tuning.
► Infinite gliding was not intended. The Dev Team is trying to balance infinite gliding with diving speed. The two are related.
► Grummz stated they're working on getting back the ability to have momentum during a dive.
► They've done a little more work on how they handle lift and angle of attack of the wings for flight simulator fans.
► The Dev Team has tweaked the turning radius.
► There will be **NO** demo next week, giving the hard working Dev Team a break!
==== GENERAL POINTS ====
► Confirmed! We will be getting a NEW skin reveal later this evening! You will be able to see what the next level skin is!
► Grummz will be updating the Change.Org & Indiegogo (petition & fundraiser) to let folks there know where EM-8ER is at in development now.
==== KETCHUP SPILLED! ====
► The mounts in Em-8er will work with both your Pilots AND Light Omniframes!
==== COMMUNITY TEAM ANNOUNCEMENTS! ====
► We will be having a little bit of house keeping on the server! So expect some changes as we reorganize a few little things so you can see certain things better, next week most likely!
► We will be announcing the next phase of the contest, for people who can draw waifu’s soon!
==== FUTURE PLANS ====
► The Gatestrider Novel, Chapter 9 is coming soon!
► We are continuing to make progress on the art pass!
► We ’re also working on the T.H.M.P.R encounter, hoping to have the base skeleton up and running, NOT next week but sometime in the near future!
► We still need to add the Tsi-Hu Beast Mode to the Playable Mockup for KS.
==== Q & A ====
► Question: Do you think auto squading people when they log in will help with social elements? Planetside 2 does this.
Grummz: I mean, we did that with thumpers. I think that can help. But I don't think you want to over use it because you don't want to be put into a pick up group every time.
► Twitch Comment: In reference to asynchronous games, some mobile games with guilds work like that due to the limitation of mobile.
Grummz: Mobile games are a great example of asynchronous play. I think we could learn from that. MMOs are too synchronous right now. So it limits their popularity because nobody has got time like that. Short session times need to feel like you advance.
► Discord Comment: Chatbox RP for me seems like a sign of failure on the part of the devs. I never use the chatbox RP in, say, Deep Rock. With RP content build into the game, you don't to have resort to playing pretend in a pretend world. In-world communication tools, I guess. Emotes, voicelines, etc.
Grummz: Yeah, I think MMO chat has fallen way behind. That's why in Em-8er, in the current phase, we've already included some of the features of modern chat, such as emoji support. Other things like chat history is important, especially for guild chat. I think that helps keep the conversation going. That's why our chat works more like Discord chat than it does in a traditional MMO chat.
► Question: How long is the guild history retained for?
Grummz: Well, I think a lot. I don't know the exact limit but, we store a LOT of chat history. We basically use a backend called Firebase which is the same backend that Discord uses to store its chat. Right now we're limited to 50 messages but, there's no reason why once you reach the 50 message limit, you can't pull more messages in on scroll back. But I think we'd like to keep it pretty reasonable.
► Question: Can’t the cash shop fund the expansions?
Grummz: I don’t think so, not alone, depends how successful the game is. Cash shop keeps the lights on, pay salaries and keep the cost of live servers running and bandwidth, but were not doing loot boxes so it'll make a lot less than the companies that are, But if we want to achieve the same levels of updates as other companies, I think we would have to crowdfund the expansion in addition to the cash shop because were not doing gambling mechanics, I think that'll be a necessity. But maybe it wont, the cash shop could be so successful we never have to crowdfund.
==== FUN STUFF! ====
► Grummz asked: Would you be interested in merchandise if we had it at Kickstarter?
Please let us know what companies you know which make high-quality printed T-shirts!
Here’s a few items that were posted during Chief Chat:
- THMPR bust plushie (Ronyn)
- T-shirts
- Hats
- Beanies
- AKTA Hoodie
- Enamel Pins
- Waifu / Husbando Body Pillows
- “Deepstryke” Mouse Pads
- Bumper stickers
- Vehicle window stickers
- Em-8er Crodus gaming mouse
- Em-8er keyboard decals
- PC Tower decals
► FAI’s thanks raffle winner! ` ♦ Farias ♦ `
==== MAIN POINTS ====
► First part of today’s stream Grummz talked about MMO Monetization and how Ashes of Creation's Creative Director SLAMS Amazon's New World.
^ To hear more on this topic, check out the Twitch VOD here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1027070004
==== Special Section This Stream: MONETIZATION ====
► In the old days, you had subscription-based only models and a box model.
► There is a tremendous amount of money to be made in after-sale monetization of games but, especially MMOs.
► If you sell cosmetics or if you sell gachas, you generate a ton of revenue.
► If you go the way of gachas, it's easily 10 times the revenue you get from out of box games.
► If you do cosmetics at all, it's easily 70% of sales are going to be from after the box.
► MMOs have huge ongoing costs for things like servers, bandwidths, and all this sort of stuff; and those costs have been coming down but MMOs are are also getting more complex.
► MMOs that generate higher revenue can put out more content and newer features at a much faster rate. That is why good revenue is important.
► Em-8er, is a very complicated game. Its servers will need to be high speed and therefore cost more. In our example, we've said we're going to sell cosmetics not gachas.
► Em-8er plans to sell the box at a high indie price and have an optional subscription model for cosmetics at a lower price than if purchased individually; as well as expansions and DLC that will be crowdfunded.
► There's an interesting problem if MMOs just go the subscription route. If they don't sell cosmetics after the game, they're going to have a hard time competing.
► Level boosts in MMOs suck away the entire point of the game. It devalues the player's contribution towards their character and any personal growth in the game.
► If MMOs remove the time element and the progression element, it becomes a dead MMO.
==== Special Section This Stream: HARDCORE vs CASUAL ====
► Games make a trade-off between older players with less time but more disposable income versus the younger players with more time and less disposable income.
► MMOs have to decide whether they want to make higher quality games but less money by choosing to avoid the mass market (analogy of Armani suits vs. Old Navy suits).
► Blizzard initially wanted to capture the hardcore gamers and the casual-hardcore gamers ("The Doughnut Theory").
► Going for a mass market appeal with the more casual gamer audience may make more money upfront, but could increase production costs because MMOs are chasing content updates with no social aspects.
► You can do things to mitigate the time sink.
► Guild activities require a lot of synchronous game play.
► The world has moved to an asynchronous style; at least on the internet.
► We need an asynchronous way to socialize in games and an asynchronous way to do guild events.
► Being able to socialize, with other people, asynchronously is where we need to be.
► So when I talk about the Firefall armies, or the Houses in Em-8er that we'll be rolling out after launch, I talk about how guild goals need to be distributed goals. It's not centered around raid activity. It's centered around players contributing on their own when they CAN. And seeing the overall progress together without forcing everyone to be online at the same time at the exact same moment.
==== Special Section This Stream: Where does Grummz stand on Monetization? ====
► Where do I stand on Monetization? I don't like loot boxes. I don't like convenience boosts either.
We did those in Firefall. In Firefall, players could pay to speed up crafting and loot boxes. It makes game designers design games to suck in order to drive players to monetization. I want to make games because I want to entertain and I want to make something fun and engaging. I don't want to choose a monetization model that make me make the game worse just to sell more.
► That being said, I have no problem with after-market sales and cash shops because that's the reality of the world we live in. If you want your game to survive and compete and be as well supported in features as well as everybody else's, you need another source of revenue beyond just the box sales.
► So what we've chosen (in Em-8er) is, non-gacha cosmetics that you can either unlock and earn in-game, and that are seasonal. That is very important to keep the rarity up, to keep the desire for these skins up to make sure you get the most out of a skin because they're expensive to create.
► I don't like anything that boosts XP.
► Em-8er is not going to compete with the big casual MMOs such as WoW or Final Fantasy. That's not our thing. And if we tried that, we'd fail because we're a small team and we have limited resources. So we're going for the niche MMO market; those who want the sci-fi world of shooter based combat, high mobility, mechs versus giant monsters and kaiju, things like that. That is what we have to go for and they're going to be a bit more of a hardcore audience.
► We're doing some things that are different from other MMOs to keep costs down for Em-8er:
^ We're always going to be in virtual offices and that's a huge cost we don't have to deal with.
^ Another thing is we're focusing on dynamic content, emergent player game play, socialization factors, and events versus static content that you run through.
^ For us, the game is not about end level raids. It's not about racing to the top of the tech-tier. It's about living this sci-fi world. It's about expanding the world and making it bigger through player activity, and actually changing the world as you go. Then fighting to defend it from the NPCs who are trying to change it the other direction.
► The thumper encounter idea I had in Firefall was originally planned to be a mini-game which changed the higher level of encounter it was. For Em-8er, the dynamic encounter has a progression to it. So it's not always the same. There is something new that happens along the way the more you do it.
==== IN-PROGRESS ====
► Did everyone like the tuning of the glider so far? Please give us your feedback on the forums! https://forums.em8er.com/threads/glider-tuning-build-phase-1-feedback-thread.1965/#post-62551
► This week the Dev Team is working on a phase 2 of the glider tuning.
► Infinite gliding was not intended. The Dev Team is trying to balance infinite gliding with diving speed. The two are related.
► Grummz stated they're working on getting back the ability to have momentum during a dive.
► They've done a little more work on how they handle lift and angle of attack of the wings for flight simulator fans.
► The Dev Team has tweaked the turning radius.
► There will be **NO** demo next week, giving the hard working Dev Team a break!
==== GENERAL POINTS ====
► Confirmed! We will be getting a NEW skin reveal later this evening! You will be able to see what the next level skin is!
► Grummz will be updating the Change.Org & Indiegogo (petition & fundraiser) to let folks there know where EM-8ER is at in development now.
==== KETCHUP SPILLED! ====
► The mounts in Em-8er will work with both your Pilots AND Light Omniframes!
==== COMMUNITY TEAM ANNOUNCEMENTS! ====
► We will be having a little bit of house keeping on the server! So expect some changes as we reorganize a few little things so you can see certain things better, next week most likely!
► We will be announcing the next phase of the contest, for people who can draw waifu’s soon!
==== FUTURE PLANS ====
► The Gatestrider Novel, Chapter 9 is coming soon!
► We are continuing to make progress on the art pass!
► We ’re also working on the T.H.M.P.R encounter, hoping to have the base skeleton up and running, NOT next week but sometime in the near future!
► We still need to add the Tsi-Hu Beast Mode to the Playable Mockup for KS.
==== Q & A ====
► Question: Do you think auto squading people when they log in will help with social elements? Planetside 2 does this.
Grummz: I mean, we did that with thumpers. I think that can help. But I don't think you want to over use it because you don't want to be put into a pick up group every time.
► Twitch Comment: In reference to asynchronous games, some mobile games with guilds work like that due to the limitation of mobile.
Grummz: Mobile games are a great example of asynchronous play. I think we could learn from that. MMOs are too synchronous right now. So it limits their popularity because nobody has got time like that. Short session times need to feel like you advance.
► Discord Comment: Chatbox RP for me seems like a sign of failure on the part of the devs. I never use the chatbox RP in, say, Deep Rock. With RP content build into the game, you don't to have resort to playing pretend in a pretend world. In-world communication tools, I guess. Emotes, voicelines, etc.
Grummz: Yeah, I think MMO chat has fallen way behind. That's why in Em-8er, in the current phase, we've already included some of the features of modern chat, such as emoji support. Other things like chat history is important, especially for guild chat. I think that helps keep the conversation going. That's why our chat works more like Discord chat than it does in a traditional MMO chat.
► Question: How long is the guild history retained for?
Grummz: Well, I think a lot. I don't know the exact limit but, we store a LOT of chat history. We basically use a backend called Firebase which is the same backend that Discord uses to store its chat. Right now we're limited to 50 messages but, there's no reason why once you reach the 50 message limit, you can't pull more messages in on scroll back. But I think we'd like to keep it pretty reasonable.
► Question: Can’t the cash shop fund the expansions?
Grummz: I don’t think so, not alone, depends how successful the game is. Cash shop keeps the lights on, pay salaries and keep the cost of live servers running and bandwidth, but were not doing loot boxes so it'll make a lot less than the companies that are, But if we want to achieve the same levels of updates as other companies, I think we would have to crowdfund the expansion in addition to the cash shop because were not doing gambling mechanics, I think that'll be a necessity. But maybe it wont, the cash shop could be so successful we never have to crowdfund.
==== FUN STUFF! ====
► Grummz asked: Would you be interested in merchandise if we had it at Kickstarter?
Please let us know what companies you know which make high-quality printed T-shirts!
Here’s a few items that were posted during Chief Chat:
- THMPR bust plushie (Ronyn)
- T-shirts
- Hats
- Beanies
- AKTA Hoodie
- Enamel Pins
- Waifu / Husbando Body Pillows
- “Deepstryke” Mouse Pads
- Bumper stickers
- Vehicle window stickers
- Em-8er Crodus gaming mouse
- Em-8er keyboard decals
- PC Tower decals
► FAI’s thanks raffle winner! ` ♦ Farias ♦ `
