Discussion - The Skin Toggle Button

[punkbuzter#6186]

Part 1.

So it has come to my attention that there's gonna be a button that makes people's "skins" chance to default appearance by the push of a button, so let's talk about that!

I hate this idea, If it's true, because if I'm spending time or even money making my character look the way I want to present my character to the world, I don't want it looking different to others because they can push a damn button, basically giving the time and money I've spent the middle finger. I mean, at that point Crixa may as well just give us a modders resource pack so we can make our custom skins locally, and that'd be the end of skin sales as we speak.
Somebody told me the other day that they'd want a 3D demo like the Feli, for other skins... I told them I don't see a Feli, I see a Draugr because I put my Draugr-goggles on, and they laughed, rightfully so! Because that's how stupid this idea is.

If I'm Leonardo Da Vinci and just made a painting, I'd want you to see my painting the way I painted it, not the way you see it cuz you pushed a button that changed my painting.
Now, imagine you've spent a great deal of time and effort making it look the way you want it to look, and you have an ongoing chat about the topic of character looks and random people tells you they don't see it the way you see it... Does anyone want that?

I know it's supposed to be optional, and you guys like options... But this is the kind of option that shouldn't exist because it devalues people's time and money spent in this game.


Part 2.
I want what other games have, like PoE (Path of Exile), where you have your separate character screen for skins, so you can pick out parts of certain pieces of a skin and mix-match with other skins... Perhaps I like the Feli's tail but want the torso from Mariegold, and the bunny boots, I should be able to pick and chose those parts as I see fit.

That means, I have to spend either time or money, probably both, to get that finished look for my character. But if people are gonna roam the game and not see the piece of art I have sunk my time and money into, what's the damn point of spending money and wasting time to begin with? I can just do some reverse engineering, find the resource files and mod my client to make my character look the way I want it to look and save my money in the process, because it's gonna be a local appearance anyway.

Part 3.
Why? What is the purpose of allowing people to click a button just to piss on everyone who sunk their time into making their character?

 

[Mahdi]

Far smaller percentile will have that option engaged than you’re thinking.

But if someone doesn’t want to see the silly clown/cat combo, or the lack of clothing in other models, they shouldn’t be forced to.

 

[Ronyn]

OK I'll entertain this for a few minutes.

Leonardo da Vinci's work, or the work of any great artist, exists in real life. Some people choose to go see it, some people choose to skip it. Some people will be in a room with it and not give it a second glance. Some folks will stare at it for hours. That is every person's personal choice.
If someone were to go and deface the Mona Lisa that would be one thing, but simply not looking at it is another.

In video games, unlike real life, we have a variety of short cuts, side steps, and redo's for everything from travel (fast travel ain't in real life) to death (still cant figure out to respawn!). Same concepts, just with a sort of easier/faster variant because its a friggin game.
Likewise, the version of "choosing not to look" at someone's work of art character has been made easier. Just toggle it off.

Do I personally think that everyone should take some time and go look at great works of art? Yes I do.
Is that something I want to FORCE people to do? No. Heck no.

Either way, it would be kind of extreme to suggest that anyone who doesn't want to look at the Mona Lisa is pissing on his hard work.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok look. Opinions on any and every feature are allowed here and there will be no disparagement for it.
However, there are a variety of features that we are extremely attached to, and nothing less than an act of nature would push us to reconsider it.

Hey I can understand not wanting to pay for features that do not work they way you want them to. totally fine. But it is not wise to publicly suggest you would get involved in any sort of hacking to get client side visuals.

The basic truth of this toggle feature is this-
Some people will see what you set your character up to look like, some people will not. Because some folks will use some toggles, some will not.
If you are insisting that EVERYONE has to see what your character looks like or you won't spend a dime then let me be clear right now. DO NOT spend a dime.

Part 3.
Why? What is the purpose of allowing people to click a button just to piss on everyone who sunk their time into making their character?

Why?

Two main reasons.

Putting control in the hands of parents-
Em-8er features skins that lean into the 17+, or arguably higher rating. Yet the game itself is functionally playable by much younger players.
This button allows parents/guardians to set the visual level the game is at, while still letting the younger person play.

Personal choice-
Every gamer has their own personal style and we want to applaud that. We also know that every player has their preference on what they see when looking around the game world. Some folks are annoyed/distracted by scantily clad characters, some people are put off by seeing things that don't fit within the games lore, preferences vary. We aren't looking to tell people what to look at, so we are pushing for as much personal choice as we can give. In this game, we care more about what you want for yourself than what you want for others. That is the choice we have made.

Now a quick note about Value-
What adds value for one person, can be viewed as taking away value to another.
Different people want different things and there is no perfect solution that will please both perspectives.

This toggle feature is generally well received, even applauded by many. I am certain there are some folks who don't like it. that's cool.

Like it, don't like it, both are fine perspectives because there is absolutely no way to please everyone.
This isn't a debate, I've made it every clear what is what.

 

[zabernat#1238]

I know this conversation basically started via someone hating on the notion of waifus in game. I’m really confused at the notion of wanting less attractive character options in the game, there are tons of games with bland and otherwise unappealing characters.

That being said, I am also confused at the hating on the “less revealing” button. At some point in customization, if the game would be forced to a mature or explicit rating without the button, I prefer the button existing. Obviously this button doesn't exist yet, so we are each making up our own version of what that represents mentally. If the button turned off all customization, I can definitely understand the argument. If the button replaced outfit base models with ones that appear less spicy but left all customization as is, the argument makes less sense to me.

 

[zabernat#1238]

Am I happy at least that the team is not waffling on this aspect of the game. It obviously sparks frustration so at least we know where the team stands and can position ourselves based on their final decision rather than battling in the comments in hopes of swaying them.

 

[Omnires]

My views on things like this is the same as my view on censorship. And that being who chooses what is suppressed or prohibited and what are their reasons for doing so. Yes, I'm all for banning things spread hate and misinformation. But things like nudity and what counts as obscene always changes from culture to culture and between time frames. So some people seeing people walk around in their underwear in public is viewed as obscene, but it is not obscene if they are wearing a swim wear which is some cases covers less of their body than their normal underwear. And this logic effects everything. Like how to some people kissing is lewd and obscene in public, as well as it should only be done with lovers. While to others kissing someone else is nothing more than a greeting like saying "Hello." to someone and done to everyone that is viewed as a friend. Does one culture has the right and authority dictate another?

Just for context I personally live in the tropics near the beach so seeing people walking around "half naked" is just common hear for normal everyday life just because it gets hot here. If it was not for the dress code jobs and schools have most people would wear as little as possible as way to stay cool and comfortable. Likewise I grew up in a culture where kissing people is nothing more than a sign of friendship. I'm just as likely to hug and/or kiss my friends as I am as shaking their hand or waving at them when greet or part ways. This is my normal way of life. And no one has the right or authority dictate otherwise other than those of us who live this kind of life. Giving how it is not hurting anyone.

 

[Ronyn]

My views on things like this is the same as my view on censorship. And that being who chooses what is suppressed or prohibited and what are their reasons for doing so.

hmmmmmm
I don't understand if you're saying you are fine with the toggle thing or not fine with the toggle thing.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

OK I'll entertain this for a few minutes.

Leonardo da Vinci's work, or the work of any great artist, exists in real life. Some people choose to go see it, some people choose to skip it. Some people will be in a room with it and not give it a second glance. Some folks will stare at it for hours. That is every person's personal choice.
If someone were to go and deface the Mona Lisa that would be one thing, but simply not looking at it is another.

In video games, unlike real life, we have a variety of short cuts, side steps, and redo's for everything from travel (fast travel ain't in real life) to death (still cant figure out to respawn!). Same concepts, just with a sort of easier/faster variant because its a friggin game.
Likewise, the version of "choosing not to look" at someone's work of art character has been made easier. Just toggle it off.

Do I personally think that everyone should take some time and go look at great works of art? Yes I do.
Is that something I want to FORCE people to do? No. Heck no.

Either way, it would be kind of extreme to suggest that anyone who doesn't want to look at the Mona Lisa is pissing on his hard work.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok look. Opinions on any and every feature are allowed here and there will be no disparagement for it.
However, there are a variety of features that we are extremely attached to, and nothing less than an act of nature would push us to reconsider it.

Hey I can understand not wanting to pay for features that do not work they way you want them to. totally fine. But it is not wise to publicly suggest you would get involved in any sort of hacking to get client side visuals.

The basic truth of this toggle feature is this-
Some people will see what you set your character up to look like, some people will not. Because some folks will use some toggles, some will not.
If you are insisting that EVERYONE has to see what your character looks like or you won't spend a dime then let me be clear right now. DO NOT spend a dime.


Why?

Two main reasons.

Putting control in the hands of parents-
Em-8er features skins that lean into the 17+, or arguably higher rating. Yet the game itself is functionally playable by much younger players.
This button allows parents/guardians to set the visual level the game is at, while still letting the younger person play.

Personal choice-
Every gamer has their own personal style and we want to applaud that. We also know that every player has their preference on what they see when looking around the game world. Some folks are annoyed/distracted by scantily clad characters, some people are put off by seeing things that don't fit within the games lore, preferences vary. We aren't looking to tell people what to look at, so we are pushing for as much personal choice as we can give. In this game, we care more about what you want for yourself than what you want for others. That is the choice we have made.

Now a quick note about Value-
What adds value for one person, can be viewed as taking away value to another.
Different people want different things and there is no perfect solution that will please both perspectives.

This toggle feature is generally well received, even applauded by many. I am certain there are some folks who don't like it. that's cool.

Like it, don't like it, both are fine perspectives because there is absolutely no way to please everyone.
This isn't a debate, I've made it every clear what is what.

When it comes to parenting, it is up to the parents to check the PEGI/ESRB rating, some parents don't care to check and some kids also don't care what their parents say. Whatever happens in other families is out of your and anyone else's control. Besides, this game is not rated, and Grummz has stated that he does not intend to aim for a specific age.

If you guys want to "filter" out the lewd stuff you can do so with a "Streamer Mode", which covers the lewd stuff so you guys don't get your streamers demonetized or banned from their platforms playing your game. But if I want to color my Feli skin different, mix-match some pieces in that skin, you should NOT allow others to disable what I created.

You guys want to force us to thump and craft, the whole resource-cycle to get better gear and progress in the game... How is this forceful behavior OK but ones money spent wanting to be presented as paid for, is not??? That's a 100% double standard, and corrupt.
How come World of Warcraft doesn't have a button to turn off graphics for everyone in Transmog gear? How come Path of Exile doesn't have such a button? APB never had it, Planetside doesn't have it, Perfect World never had it... How come every single game I can think of doesn't have this button? Most probably because it's stupid and devalues peoples money spent...

Don't screw around with my money! If I want the world to see my character for what I've made it into, don't take that away from me.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

I know this conversation basically started via someone hating on the notion of waifus in game. I’m really confused at the notion of wanting less attractive character options in the game, there are tons of games with bland and otherwise unappealing characters.

That being said, I am also confused at the hating on the “less revealing” button. At some point in customization, if the game would be forced to a mature or explicit rating without the button, I prefer the button existing. Obviously this button doesn't exist yet, so we are each making up our own version of what that represents mentally. If the button turned off all customization, I can definitely understand the argument. If the button replaced outfit base models with ones that appear less spicy but left all customization as is, the argument makes less sense to me.

There's no hate toward a "less revealing button", I have suggested "Streamer Mode", which League of Maidens also has.
What I'm frustrated about is that people will have a button that changes the looks of my character, the colors I picked, the shapes I've crafted, the hair I chose, the light effects I've installed on my character, into the default look as viewed on current concept art.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

here's the discussion that took place, which later revealed that there's going to be a button to see "lore only skins".
but what happens when I've mix-matched some parts of one skin with another... OR, when I changed the color of my character's hair? Is my customizations going to be nulled because of a stupid button? Then I don't want no part of this scam.

This is the 2nd time I get the feeling that this game is going to milk your wallets like no other because of stupid options given to players, devaluing their money spent because of someone's stupid standards... It'd appear that the Social Justice Warriors gets what they want with this one.

If I can promise anyone anything, it's that this game was the first, and will forever be the last game I ever support financially pre-launch if Em8er is heading down this road. This industry is doomed, It is corrupt, and sadly I see no hope of Em8er ever breaking this trend. I knew it long before I ever found this one, but I came here anyway, hoping....
I thought we were gonna get another games company like GGG where loyalty towards the customers always comes first, which was a fools errand.

Crixa doesn't value people's creations if they're going to let people turn off players customizations with the push of a button.

 

[Ronyn]

When it comes to parenting, it is up to the parents to check the PEGI/ESRB rating, some parents don't care to check and some kids also don't care what their parents say. Whatever happens in other families is out of your and anyone else's control. Besides, this game is not rated, and Grummz has stated that he does not intend to aim for a specific age.

When it comes to parenting, it's up to the parent to use the rules provided. Whether that is avoiding purchasing the bike, or putting on the training wheels.
Each parent decides for themselves what methods to employ, just as each products manufacture decides what tools to offer.
This is not something you get to decide for everyone else.

NOTE: As for what Grummz has stated. I would like to remind you that the main reasons I mentioned what this feature is for were from him. Em-8er isnt aimed at a specific age so much as meant to be played by many ages. That's kinda the idea...

If you guys want to "filter" out the lewd stuff you can do so with a "Streamer Mode", which covers the lewd stuff so you guys don't get your streamers demonetized or banned from their platforms playing your game. But if I want to color my Feli skin different, mix-match some pieces in that skin, you should NOT allow others to disable what I created.

So you accept streamer mode as something will prevent certain people from seeing your creation?
Why is that different? They either see what you made or they don't.

You guys want to force us to thump and craft, the whole resource-cycle to get better gear and progress in the game... How is this forceful behavior OK but ones money spent wanting to be presented as paid for, is not??? That's a 100% double standard, and corrupt.

That's a false equivalent.
Every game, by it's very nature, forces you to take part in some activity.
If you don't want to drive anything, don't pick up a driving game. If you don't want to shoot at things, don't pick up a shooter.
The basic concept of a game is that it requires you to do something in order to play it.
Suggesting that means we can't then offer choices in other aspects without it being a double standard is ridiculous.

Y
How come World of Warcraft doesn't have a button to turn off graphics for everyone in Transmog gear? How come Path of Exile doesn't have such a button? APB never had it, Planetside doesn't have it, Perfect World never had it... How come every single game I can think of doesn't have this button?

This is indeed a unique feature. First time I've ever seen it.
We can't know for sure how well it go over.

Most probably because it's stupid and devalues peoples money spent...

Don't screw around with my money! If I want the world to see my character for what I've made it into, don't take that away from me.

I already covered this point. Just as it makes you feel your money is devalued, it will make some others feel their money is more valued. You're allowed to have your own preferences, but speaking for others will not get you anywhere.

Remember, you are free to not spend any money on skins in this game.

You should really stop with going beyond the scope of the point here...
You don't like it. We get it. That's cool. Most of the rest of this is not helping your case.

 

[Pandagnome]

To filter or not to filter that is an interesting question?

Filter for one or no filter for another,
what ever your delight for some is a fright

Reapers look no further, the filter gives choice
just like my skull chum i behold!

 

[Omnires]

hmmmmmm
I don't understand if you're saying you are fine with the toggle thing or not fine with the toggle thing.

I'm against it because it is not like you guys are going to make cloths and patterns in the game that do things like spread hate or misinformation. And I'm sure your not going to have full on nudity in the game. And even if there was full nudity in the game all you need is a button to blur out that bit of their body without changing how the character looks. For example like how in anime there are those odd steam or dust clouds that block your view or the god rays of light or just do old school and have leaf or black bar covering the key parts for those people who don't want to see it. But everything else about them is unchanged.

One of the things I always hated about filters in some games are the double standers. Why is this thing ok and this thing is not? Most of the stuff seems arbitrary at best and down right deceitful at worst. A good example of arbitrary filters being in things like chats. So in some games the word bastard is one of the words that blocked or banded form chat. But at the same time they have weapons like the bastard sword in their game. So can't use a word in the chat that is name of an item in the game and is a word some NPCs say. And let's not get started weapons like the bipennis.

Games like Phantasy Star Online 2 is rated M and is consoles. And they have items in game like the famous Ballooned Bosom accessory. Which is just a set of comically large breasts you put on your character, and not just on the cheat. Even with the dev take do live streams of the game and take group pictures with the random players who follow them around in the stream they don't block them or blur them out. And the only thing streamer mode does it block out hide the things people do in chat. But if someone wanted to stand next to one of the hosts' characters while they are streaming wearing a spaghetti sting underwear and the Ballooned Bosom accessory scaled up to make their character's boobs be larger than the character itself that is allowed. Because it is not against the rules of the game to run around in nothing but underwear while having comically large breasts.

 

[Ronyn]

I'm against it because...

Ok Here is what the feature is-
Person A chooses what they look like.
Person B chooses whether they see anything beyond basic gear.

That means a few important things-
Censorship is not the issue because no one else is deciding what you see.

Word Filters in games are very different. As they prevent a words actual use, not simply whether a person can choose, for themselves, to opt out of seeing it.

How much nudity makes this a good or bad feature is subjective, what may be viewed as too nude for one person, could be different for another. So who chooses what's too much and what is not? You?

And yes, some games do overtly sexy outfits without filters so you either play the game and see it, or you don't play at all. Great.

We plan to offer the filter so people can choose for themselves to play the game and see the sexy outfits or not, based on their personal choice.

To argue against this feature, you have to make the case why person A should get to make person B look at what they are wearing. That's it. That's the argument you have to provide.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

When it comes to parenting, it's up to the parent to use the rules provided. Whether that is avoiding purchasing the bike, or putting on the training wheels.
Each parent decides for themselves what methods to employ, just as each products manufacture decides what tools to offer.
This is not something you get to decide for everyone else.

NOTE: As for what Grummz has stated. I would like to remind you that the main reasons I mentioned what this feature is for were from him. Em-8er isnt aimed at a specific age so much as meant to be played by many ages. That's kinda the idea...


So you accept streamer mode as something will prevent certain people from seeing your creation?
Why is that different? They either see what you made or they don't.


That's a false equivalent.
Every game, by it's very nature, forces you to take part in some activity.
If you don't want to drive anything, don't pick up a driving game. If you don't want to shoot at things, don't pick up a shooter.
The basic concept of a game is that it requires you to do something in order to play it.
Suggesting that means we can't then offer choices in other aspects without it being a double standard is ridiculous.


This is indeed a unique feature. First time I've ever seen it.
We can't know for sure how well it go over.


I already covered this point. Just as it makes you feel your money is devalued, it will make some others feel their money is more valued. You're allowed to have your own preferences, but speaking for others will not get you anywhere.

Remember, you are free to not spend any money on skins in this game.

You should really stop with going beyond the scope of the point here...
You don't like it. We get it. That's cool. Most of the rest of this is not helping your case.

I accept an optional button that covers the lewd stuff, for the sake of streamers and content creators. I do NOT accept a button that changes my skin from Custom to Default.

Let ESRB/PEGI do the rating for the game, meanwhile Crixa should focus on making their game.
Don't try to steer the boat for parents and everyone playing unless the game has already its desired ESRB/PEGI rating set, which as far as I've been told, it has not. Let parents worry about their own, so Crixa can focus on making their game.

And yeah, playing games is optional, and in most of my cases I never had to pay for them, which means I can quit a game at any time no strings attached.
When it's about Em8er I can't, because it's a paid title... Which is why I'm telling you guys DONT FUCK AROUND WITH MY CASH. If Em8er was a free game I wouldn't have given two shits, but you wanted me to pay for it, now you have to answer for the development choice of reducing its value.

Ahaha, speaking for others will not get me anywhere, no I know xD
Because if you're on the one side of the spectrum that doesn't agree with development It'll get no one anywhere unless you agree with the developer LOL... That's kind of a one-sided argument.
I should be able to speak my mind without being told my feedback doesn't matter.
I'm telling you there's a reason why developers doesn't screw around with people's money like this in other games, it'd be wise to do some self-analytics and ask why other games haven't done so already, why's Em8er the first?

I don't care about nudity, what I care about is if my customizations to paid skins is going to be nulled or not. I'm 100% ok with optional chat filters, and optional Streamer Mode graphics, as long as you guys don't make removal of my customizations into "default skin" with a push of a button, ESPECIALLY NOT if the reason is to control how parents do their parenting. If parents can't do their parenting on their own, they shouldn't be allowed to be parents to begin with.

 

[punkbuzter#6186]

I'll use League of Maidens as an example here as they got the right idea, there's plenty of things I don't like about that game but this one is done right.

What's "Streamer Mode" ?
The Streamer Mode option will detect whether or not a streaming applications is running, to automatically enable/disable an Adult Filter that censors nudity.

1. Streamer Mode is optional.
2. Streamer Mode acts as a fail-safe for Optional Censorship if streaming applications are running.
3. Optional Censorship does NOT make changes to player's customizations.
4. Optional Censorship acts as an underlying skin, like a body suit between player's customizations and character's nipples for example.
5. Streamer Mode and the Optional Censorship does NOT remove player customizations or revert a customized skins to a default skin.

This does not mean that censorship can't be turned on manually, it's optional too, but regardless how optional everything is it does not make changes to shapes, colors and other edits the players have made to look the way they want.

Streamer Mode should be turned ON by default.
Optional (manual) Censorship should be turned OFF by default.
Chat Filter should be turned ON by default.

 

[Pandagnome]

I'm sure your not going to have full on nudity in the game. And even if there was full nudity in the game all you need is a button to blur out that bit of their body without changing how the character looks.

Do we actually know the filter option parameters such as

- High filtering (Creates a clean fun experience perhaps suited for younger lot)
- Partial filtering (Disables some filters such as gore etc)
- Selective filtering (Control of what filtering you would like or not)
- No filtering (None what so ever enjoy the game with nothing restricted)

We plan to offer the filter so people can choose for themselves to play the game and see the sexy outfits or not, based on their personal choice.

So that means each individual player can get to decide if they want to filter or not.
It won't be the other player enforcing what you cannot see but the players choice, so that is good from my understanding.

I do NOT accept a button that changes my skin from Custom to Default.

Some will see you for what you like, and others may choose not to just like they would for anyone else including me.

Your experience wont change but to deny a button for someone else to use is what i am confused.
Let them enjoy the game to their preference and you may enjoy your game to yours.

What i like about this is the individual player can experience the game to see players in goofy outfits to more cool looking or way across the spectrum to almost bare etc

Let parents worry about their own, so Crixa can focus on making their game.

what I care about is if my customizations to paid skins is going to be nulled or not. I'm 100% ok with optional chat filters, and optional Streamer Mode graphics, as long as you guys don't make removal of my customizations into "default skin" with a push of a button, ESPECIALLY NOT if the reason is to control how parents do their parenting. If parents can't do their parenting on their own, they shouldn't be allowed to be parents to begin with.

Funny thing can tell you not all parents are going to make the time, especially after working for long days or just not concerned etc

No one is removing your customization in your game play, the other players can decide if they like to see yours or someone else's is all.

An example when watching television or listening to music if something is not to my taste i would either
- Change the channel to something more entertaining to my preference.
- Mute the channel temporarily until that part of the advert/show/music has passed
- Turn off device to soak in some silence

When we speak of a game these choices are valuable just like remote control menu/buttons to give us.
I wonder if someone disliked the music they could turn it off and play some of their own music on the side and setting the music volume for them self.

If we are talking about copy right music i'd imagine that if bands do play in the game then their music including ost's could be used in the games personal music configuration.

Streamer Mode should be turned ON by default.
Optional (manual) Censorship should be turned OFF by default.
Chat Filter should be turned ON by default.

Perhaps at the start of game before even entering there could be a notice mentioning "check your options and filter to provide you with the best experience. You can always go back and change it if you are not happy with the applied settings".

Also little explanations of the settings while hovering or underneath that, so the player understands the function and to decide if they want it on or off.

I would imagine streamers may decide to use alternatives such as self hosted on their own servers with a decent peering agreement. Otherwise using something like bitchute although the streaming for that is still not there yet.

 

[Omnires]

Ok Here is what the feature is-
Person A chooses what they look like.
Person B chooses whether they see anything beyond basic gear.

That means a few important things-
Censorship is not the issue because no one else is deciding what you see.

Word Filters in games are very different. As they prevent a words actual use, not simply whether a person can choose, for themselves, to opt out of seeing it.

How much nudity makes this a good or bad feature is subjective, what may be viewed as too nude for one person, could be different for another. So who chooses what's too much and what is not? You?

And yes, some games do overtly sexy outfits without filters so you either play the game and see it, or you don't play at all. Great.

We plan to offer the filter so people can choose for themselves to play the game and see the sexy outfits or not, based on their personal choice.

To argue against this feature, you have to make the case why person A should get to make person B look at what they are wearing. That's it. That's the argument you have to provide.

But that is the thing. I'm viewing is in the same way as free speech and freedom of expression. Which is why I always denote the whole not spreading hate or misinformation part in my posts. Yes, we have thing like free speech and freedom of expression but the limits to those things are things we all agree on, like not yelling "Fire!" in a building when there is not a fire. Because doing so falls under both misinformation and risk to public safety. And the funny thing is how someone looks and dresses also falls under free speech. Meaning choosing to censor how players look also like censor free speech. Unless the rules and guidelines for how players look is something everyone can agree on than why offer the option to have it in the game in the first place? Even more so if it is something people paid for. They paid for it because they liked it and it is part of their freedom of expression to wear it. But then take away the ability for it not to be seen by all in the way that the person wearing it has made it look, is going against the promised agreement that most people who paid to look that way accepted when buying into the game. And so it is up to the dev team to justify why they feel the need to break the promise that some people spent money on.

I'm not against filters as long as they are within reason. But changing how someone looks to a basic default skin just because of censorship reasons in a game seems a bit to much justify. And it is not like I haven't seen options like that in games before, but it is way never for censorship reasons and always for performance reasons. Like if someone had a potato computer but still wants to play the game by lowering all the settings. And this sometimes includes making all characters just be something like blink paper dolls with no details outside of say size difference and gender, other than that all you see is a lot of clay dolls or shadow people running around. I'm ok with options like that because it does it everyone not just people who are flagged by the system as being obscene.

 

[Ronyn]

Let me go ahead and speak for myself for a minute.
I play lots of games where skins are for sale. I buy a whole lot, I mean a whole lot, of skins.
I do it because I like to see my character to look a certain way. I even swap skins based on my mood or character build. I fill out all tabs on the visuals menu when I can. I am seriously into this.
I like to walk around in MMO's and have people compliment my outfit. Oh yeah, I do.
I am literally the kind of customer that makes games rich for having cool visual options.
Now then, do I care whether other people were to see my character as just the base version of it...
not really. I am happy enough that I look the way I want to when I look at myself.
Is it more fun if other people see it? Yes, as I said the compliments are nice. But is it so dire that I won't buy skins if some percentage of other people can opt to not see it? nope. Cause I still get to look at my character looking the way I want them to. That's just me though. I'm allowed to feel this way.
I understand other folks will feel differently.

TLDR
To recap. I whale for skins. While I enjoy when other people see my custom character, don't care that much if other people don't see it.

choosing to censor how players look also like censor free speech.

YOU choosing not to see me in my awesome custom skin is not censoring ME from seeing myself in my awesome custom skin. When you can change my outfit on my screen we can talk about censorship, until then... You are actually talking about you being able to make me see something.

I ....

So then, we are coming to the end of this. Cause if you can't stay on point I'm going to just remove myself from the discussion and let it be whatever it is. lol

Ok how do I put this.
Honestly everything you said is just another version of what you already said, that I already countered. You're still talking around the issue, and adding new layers of fluff.
With the latest post you've added the assumption that we don't have any analytics to support this kind of tool-for-parents feature (for example: how things like blood/sweat toggle effect a games sales), you suggest that offering tools is controlling how parents do their job (when it is LITERALLY THE OPPOSITE of that), you ignore the other reason people may not want to see certain skins (like keeping the visuals lore accurate) and you play the victim like you aren't allowed to say you don't like a feature. Which, again, I acknowledged that not everyone will like it, and that is ok. You are allowed to not like it.

What are you really saying?
This boils down to you want EVERYONE else, to see your character the way you want them to.
You don't want anyone to be able to be able to even play the game, unless they have to see your character the way you made it. Doesn't appear to matter to you what percentage of people would even use the feature, nope. (cause it would likely be pretty small, historically it's the option of stuff like this that has more impact than the use of it) According to you, EVERYONE has to see your character whether they like the lore breaks, the super sexy, or whatever. You paid for those skins, other people seeing the skins brings value to you personally, if those other people feel value comes from games where they have more tools to make their own choices on what they see, you don't care. EVERYONE's gotta see your custom character.

That's fine. You can take that stance. You're allowed to feel that way.
Now YOU have to understand that other folks will feel differently.

Which brings me, once again, to the same old point.
No feature is perfect for every preference.

 

[Omnires]

Do we actually know the filter option parameters such as

- High filtering (Creates a clean fun experience perhaps suited for younger lot)
- Partial filtering (Disables some filters such as gore etc)
- Selective filtering (Control of what filtering you would like or not)
- No filtering (None what so ever enjoy the game with nothing restricted)

I don't mind things like that, if it is something everyone agrees to going in. Although what is flagged and why it is flagged is always something that is going to be a focus point for me if I can't understand the logic behind it.