Multi-classing

[Omnires]

In some games you can play multiple classes at once. Often times in many games it is only two, the main class and the sub-class, but in other games the limit is higher. As different classes has access to different abilities, passives, and even gear. Allowing players to mix and match two or more classing allows them more freedom in how they want to play. Even more so for those odd people who like to play non-core archetypes.

For example, like how I like to play as a melee sniper in some games where I can my sniper rifle at close range no scoping enemies for kill just as much as I melee them between reloading (like I did in the earlier days of FireFall). it is not that I can't snipe from super far away, it is just that most games are not really designed for snipers do to them not taking into account things like how do sniper get loot or be counted as part of clearing a mission if they are outside of the mission area. As almost games are designed around close to mid-range combat only. So in a lot of games I just end up using sniper rifles at close range because I still love the power of them, as there is rarely hand gun type of weapon that is as powerful as sniper rifle to kill multiple enemies in one hit that is also not an AOE weapon.

So, this topic is both about different class archetypes in games as well as what do you like play as in multi-classing games.

For example, in fantasy games I like to play as dual wielding melee fight who is also a mage. Going by the game this type of people are everything from spell swords to sword mages to martial mages to magic knights and so on.

 

[zabernat#1238]

In some games you can play multiple classes at once. Often times in many games it is only two, the main class and the sub-class, but in other games the limit is higher. As different classes has access to different abilities, passives, and even gear. Allowing players to mix and match two or more classing allows them more freedom in how they want to play. Even more so for those odd people who like to play non-core archetypes.

For example, like how I like to play as a melee sniper in some games where I can my sniper rifle at close range no scoping enemies for kill just as much as I melee them between reloading (like I did in the earlier days of FireFall). it is not that I can't snipe from super far away, it is just that most games are not really designed for snipers do to them not taking into account things like how do sniper get loot or be counted as part of clearing a mission if they are outside of the mission area. As almost games are designed around close to mid-range combat only. So in a lot of games I just end up using sniper rifles at close range because I still love the power of them, as there is rarely hand gun type of weapon that is as powerful as sniper rifle to kill multiple enemies in one hit that is also not an AOE weapon.

So, this topic is both about different class archetypes in games as well as what do you like play as in multi-classing games.

For example, in fantasy games I like to play as dual wielding melee fight who is also a mage. Going by the game this type of people are everything from spell swords to sword mages to martial mages to magic knights and so on.

The frames as described are likely to be the primary driver of class in-game. In other words, some are going to be melee, ranged, “techno- mage”, or some sort of hybrid that has the ability to accomplish multiple archetypes similar to multiclass.

 

[Omnires]

The frames as described are likely to be the primary driver of class in-game. In other words, some are going to be melee, ranged, “techno- mage”, or some sort of hybrid that has the ability to accomplish multiple archetypes similar to multiclass.

I am aware of this. But to cover all the different archetypes there needs to be more than 4 types of frames or power sets. And there is many ways to go about it doing that. I'll wait until days of open beta where more things have been worked on to sure my thoughts on things like that. Each game is different and different tactics are needed to give players the freedom they need to play how they like, rather than forcing players to jump from META to META with each patch and update. METAs in games are sign of some kind on imbalances within the system makes it so a number of options are blocked off or to limited to players.

This topic is more about showing the different archetypes the people here like to use and how they work. Plus I want to know if there is anyone here using an archetype that I never heard of. As a person who use to studied anthropology in the past, I still enjoy learning about different people and their views / ways. And just because two people might play the same archetype doesn't mean they play them in same way, as archetypes by their nature are just templets at best and not hard set rules.

For example, like I said before in some games I like to play as a hybrid melee-mage class as do many other people. But that doesn't mean that everyone enjoys doing the things I do when playing as such a character. Like using ice magic to root and/or stun enemy(s) from far away before teleporting to them and going by what weapon I'm using at the time try to cut them in half with one powerful swing or stab them 100 times in like 1 second or blast them in a head with my high caliber pistol / hand cannon, and if they don't die for that attack I use fireball or explosion magic to push them away to make space and buy time for my next move. Or like how in some games I use healing and reviving magic on undead types of enemies to do massive damage and destroy them. (Note, it is only happens in games that use the logic of healing magic try to remove ilmenites and regrow cells restoring a body back to its most natural state. So trying to heal an undead actually kills them because you are removing the things that make them undead to start with.). Because goes by the role I'm playing I switch back and froth between being tactically minded and strategic thinking. And multi-classing gives me that flexibility to out think any problem rather than trying to brute force everything. I'll let the other players run around being sledgehammers while I'll be scalpel.

 

[zabernat#1238]

I think I understand what you’re getting at. We may see a bit more of what versatility will be offered by the final game when the vertical slice of the game has been developed but I do think what you’re asking about has the potential to appear in the final game. Have you posted your frame ideas in the design your own concept omniframe thread too?

 

[Sy]

I haven't heard the word class in years. There has been a notion of pilots mattering somehow, just like there are a few tropes in anime, but I haven't heard anything even spitballed. I could see them being a bag of numbers and nothing else; pilots are a different style of gameplay and I can't imagine them being well-implemented for launch.

Ember is being positioned as having a thousand and more combinations of abilities. Path of Exile has been cited for it's incredible character-building flexibility. Ember is meant to be classless with a minor-to-moderate ability constraint surrounding the three frames. No there cannot be more frames because it's a truly insane amount of work.

The team has given the idea for the first creator of a loadout getting to name it, so I guess that's a vague equivalent to a class. They have also brought up a kind of "digital DNA" so players can see and replicate abilities or skins they see on others.

 

[Pandagnome]

When we speak of multi class how many attributes from the classes can we have in one?

As an example i'd imagine we could have a mix but with the number of slots, options lets say 2.

A)

- Recon Stealth class
This is a class i enjoy giving me options to use decoy, plant bugs/explosive, hack, use advance optics to see various things in different ways such as hidden entrances or hostages even useful information relayed between you and the Reaper network.
Access to Advanced Stealth with more gadgets and specialized camo patterns to reduce detection for use on the pilot to Mek etc.

+

- GCSF class
This class would give me more tools to compliment with recon such as detective A.I enhancing my optics and capabilities to cross reference with GCSF data base and Reaper network.
Have the options of more non-lethal to lethal weapons/devices for different situations.
Access to forensic analysis a mode showing composition of what the sample is through your optics.

This way i'll be able to tackle situations in various ways and solve cold cases to protecting the innocent of the citizen of Em8er sky base etc.



B)

- Medic Healer class
This class i like to revive others and give opponents debuffs using my p.a.i.n (Precision Aim Injector Nanotech) Access to antitoxins, medical diagnosis module to remove foreign bodies that may cause illness reducing the pilots efficiency.

+

- Engineer class
This class to fix vehicles and reinforced weildings, there is access to turret types and mobile repair station etc.


This would give me the ideal support combo to repair, maintain, defend, heal also saving lives!

 

[Omnires]

I think I understand what you’re getting at. We may see a bit more of what versatility will be offered by the final game when the vertical slice of the game has been developed but I do think what you’re asking about has the potential to appear in the final game. Have you posted your frame ideas in the design your own concept omniframe thread too?

I can't remember if I did or not. Although I am one of the people who view that the pilots need to play key role in the game do to the fact that some of the omniframes use a biofeedback system to control them. And as such any skills and abilities the pilot has can be translated into how frame moves and works. For example if the pilot is a dancer than the frame will mimic how they move and so the pilot can make the frame do things that the designers of the frame might never thought of because they never imaged a dancer being the pilot. Some times the different in power between two people is not how strong they are but how they move. It is why in some sports like American football some of the best players state that part of the reason why they are able to avoid taking hits or breaking holds is because of their background as dancers (like ballet). Different people with different background would be able to make the frame do things that would seem outside of the limits of their specs just do to things like muscle memory and proprioception of the pilots and their effects on the biofeedback system.

I haven't heard the word class in years. There has been a notion of pilots mattering somehow, just like there are a few tropes in anime, but I haven't heard anything even spitballed. I could see them being a bag of numbers and nothing else; pilots are a different style of gameplay and I can't imagine them being well-implemented for launch.

Ember is being positioned as having a thousand and more combinations of abilities. Path of Exile has been cited for it's incredible character-building flexibility. Ember is meant to be classless with a minor-to-moderate ability constraint surrounding the three frames. No there cannot be more frames because it's a truly insane amount of work.

The team has given the idea for the first creator of a loadout getting to name it, so I guess that's a vague equivalent to a class. They have also brought up a kind of "digital DNA" so players can see and replicate abilities or skins they see on others.

I've seen a few games over the years play around with the idea of what is a class and how they work. One of the newest games coming called Super Fuse has some good ideas in terms of giving players a lot of freedom in how they make by letting players edit how their skills and abilities work.

Also part of the reason I use the world class is because I grew up in the 80's and played a lot of RPGs and JRPGs in those days. And also in games like D&D I always hated how my archetype was called things like rogues which often denoted them as being some kind of criminal or dishonorable person. And until later versions of the game came out to let people have sub skills and abilities everyone set in their roles. Which is why songs like this exist in the first place.

When we speak of multi class how many attributes from the classes can we have in one?

As an example i'd imagine we could have a mix but with the number of slots, options lets say 2.

A)

- Recon Stealth class
This is a class i enjoy giving me options to use decoy, plant bugs/explosive, hack, use advance optics to see various things in different ways such as hidden entrances or hostages even useful information relayed between you and the Reaper network.
Access to Advanced Stealth with more gadgets and specialized camo patterns to reduce detection for use on the pilot to Mek etc.

+

- GCSF class
This class would give me more tools to compliment with recon such as detective A.I enhancing my optics and capabilities to cross reference with GCSF data base and Reaper network.
Have the options of more non-lethal to lethal weapons/devices for different situations.
Access to forensic analysis a mode showing composition of what the sample is through your optics.

This way i'll be able to tackle situations in various ways and solve cold cases to protecting the innocent of the citizen of Em8er sky base etc.



B)

- Medic Healer class
This class i like to revive others and give opponents debuffs using my p.a.i.n (Precision Aim Injector Nanotech) Access to antitoxins, medical diagnosis module to remove foreign bodies that may cause illness reducing the pilots efficiency.

+

- Engineer class
This class to fix vehicles and reinforced weildings, there is access to turret types and mobile repair station etc.


This would give me the ideal support combo to repair, maintain, defend, heal also saving lives!

In a 2 class system there is 3 main paths. Pick to classes that cover each other's weaknesses (picking tank and glass cannon) or doubling down (picking a crit focused DPS and DOT focused DPS) or Jack-of-all-trades picking 2 classes that gives you the most options in abilities so you can do a little bit of everything. And the number of combos and options goes up with more classes to can use at once. In some games the idea of classes is meaningless because everyone can use any skill and ability at any time, but rather what class you pick gives you buffs and bonuses for skills and abilities related to that class.

For example, nothing is stopping a warrior from use a bow in combat but only people who are playing as archer class can do things like fire 2 arrows at once and have them both hit do to the aim buff on ranged weapons. Likewise nothing is stopping an archer from using swords in combat, but only people who part of the warrior class can do things like stun-lock enemies or stack bleed damage to drain enemy HP faster.

 

[zabernat#1238]

I don’t want to rain on your parade or anything but, in my opinion, the game design thus far definitely lends itself to focusing stats and build related concerns solely to MEKs rather than the pilots. In a pure rpg you could have both but the MEK design will inevitably suffer when balance concerns and development time need to be considered for both. I don’t want to be a wet blanket to your thread so feel free to keep talking about it. I would rather see combat and mobility stats to be focused primary on the MEKs similarly to an Elite Dangerous style game.

 

[zabernat#1238]

I do like the ideas but just disagree at least for the initial game launch, I would rather see those development resources devoted to MEKs with pilots becoming more important at a later date unless the game is meant to drop with a full single player main story or something.

 

[Omnires]

Well I'm not asking for all of this to happen at launch just do to the systems for such things not being in place. But rather to talk about them as if they was in place, this thread is more of a thought experiment. Think like 2 or 3 years after launch if that helps. How much freedom will players have in playing the game in how they want to play as if METAs don't exist. Because as I stated before METAs are a sign of there being imbalances within the systems of the game that limit player freedom and options. Plus even in classless games the player base will often make up their own classes anyway, even more so in team games.

I don't think this is happening, but just in case it is it would be a good to know that we are all on same page in terms of what a class is. This goes into more detail I would have as what a class is. Because of my background in anthropology I mostly view classes as a set of archetypes within a given system. But I'm bad as explaining what I mean by this. So this might help.

 

[zabernat#1238]

Well I'm not asking for all of this to happen at launch just do to the systems for such things not being in place. But rather to talk about them as if they was in place, this thread is more of a thought experiment. Think like 2 or 3 years after launch if that helps. How much freedom will players have in playing the game in how they want to play as if METAs don't exist. Because as I stated before METAs are a sign of there being imbalances within the systems of the game that limit player freedom and options. Plus even in classless games the player base will often make up their own classes anyway, even more so in team games.

I don't think this is happening, but just in case it is it would be a good to know that we are all on same page in terms of what a class is. This goes into more detail I would have as what a class is. Because of my background in anthropology I mostly view classes as a set of archetypes within a given system. But I'm bad as explaining what I mean by this. So this might help.

Discussing the meta will inevitably happen when choices exist in my opinion. In a game like Skyrim, the strongest armors are all obvious, spells have a highest level in their type, and you really cannot alter them much without mods. There is no meta aside from whatever has the highest stats by playtype really. However, The more options that exist and the more difficult the end game content, the more there is room for a meta to develop. The game not being pvp should help avoid meta-snob players but that isn’t a guarantee.

 

[Omnires]

Discussing the meta will inevitably happen when choices exist in my opinion. In a game like Skyrim, the strongest armors are all obvious, spells have a highest level in their type, and you really cannot alter them much without mods. There is no meta aside from whatever has the highest stats by playtype really. However, The more options that exist and the more difficult the end game content, the more there is room for a meta to develop. The game not being pvp should help avoid meta-snob players but that isn’t a guarantee.

Some METAs are ok for as long as they are logical METAs. Like maybe is a bad idea to use to use weapons like flamethrowers while you are in a cave system that is full of highly combustible and explosive gases and dust. Or maybe not use the massive AOE attack to kill the enemy while they are using hostages as shields. But those are nothing but tests of the player's problem solving abilities as well as skills as a player if they find fun ways around it.

But bad METAs in games are things like. Everyone using AOE weapons to play the game because single target weapons are under powered. Or everyone plays this class or use this build because it is only one that really works. Because all the other options players could try and do just don't work or are super ineffective. Look at games like Warframe. Yes, the game is fun, but is also has a really bad META problem because of all the power creep and imbalance within the weapons, abilities, and characters. And they time the change something about the game what is one of the first things people talk about? It is rarely about how fun the change is going to be, but rather how will the change effect the METAs. Because at this point everyone knows the devs never going to fully balance the game. They'll just put bandages on stuff and never fix the real underlaying problems in the system.

 

[Pandagnome]

Some METAs are ok for as long as they are logical METAs. Like maybe is a bad idea to use to use weapons like flamethrowers while you are in a cave system that is full of highly combustible and explosive gases and dust. Or maybe not use the massive AOE attack to kill the enemy while they are using hostages as shields. But those are nothing but tests of the player's problem solving abilities as well as skills as a player if they find fun ways around it.

But bad METAs in games are things like. Everyone using AOE weapons to play the game because single target weapons are under powered. Or everyone plays this class or use this build because it is only one that really works. Because all the other options players could try and do just don't work or are super ineffective. Look at games like Warframe. Yes, the game is fun, but is also has a really bad META problem because of all the power creep and imbalance within the weapons, abilities, and characters. And they time the change something about the game what is one of the first things people talk about? It is rarely about how fun the change is going to be, but rather how will the change effect the METAs. Because at this point everyone knows the devs never going to fully balance the game. They'll just put bandages on stuff and never fix the real underlaying problems in the system.

As an example i have got a weapon called the phenmor its nice though virtually most of the players tend to use AOE damage to wipe things off the map. This goes for virtually all the missions including abilities that frames with AOE or using a helminths system to replace an ability with more AOE too.

Yes AOE does have its place depending on the situation and so far AOE tends to be the META including the one i am using which is surprisingly not AOE and has a nice increase to its stats and fire rate once you fill a bar and activate.