Progression , Craft , Economy Flow

[vadio#5055]

Yasterday we talk about AI.....
In same topic i metion next topic need be economy , this subject per se need bit breakdown
in Individual Progression , Craft , and Economy Flow

First i true believe we dont have need levels / even tiers today is most issue relay in find group or people to do content together and main issue from that is level/ilvl gear its more win/win situation if new player can join up direct to meta gaming or do as please without any invisible wall , he probably die try enter , after all is skill shooter game rigth?

Take off level a side , next section its bit more trick , what kind progression we going have?
Individual per se , be pretty much generic Skins/Title/Archivments
Except gear

To understand next section you should played Firefall before 0.7 patch , or Star Wars Galaxies , or Mortal Online1/2
First Gear have caps lets say QR1000 gear have +100 stats cap and QR100 gear have +10 stats sound unfair? rigth
Since EM8R said NO PVP , And Dynamic Resource respaw ,we can increase or decrease this gap but at same time i wish make use rare gear worth and used in special ocasion... like big invasion you have chance to lose some important battle

Back to track... with this +10 or +100 stats in mind , second about combine resources in order to produce desired effect
I leave this as example https://mortaldata.com/workbench/ / Crafting | SWG Wiki | Fandom Crafting | SWG Restoration III
as you can notice each combination of resources lead in at same item with diferent stats , in EM8R this stats can be endless Fire Rate , Ammo Count , Explosion Damage , Elemental Dmg , Less Spread , Less Bullet Drop , Reload , Recharge you name it but for each sum cant exced max stat cap

*In armor/wep you can be creative and add elemental damages beyond traditional burn/penetration/slashing to archive more biomes and horizontal progression and more materials avaible to find/extract/auction , you cant survive more that 10min in toxic biome with 0 resit however if you have 50 this time is double/triple you got it

Now We move foward Economy flow
First all , This game in any manner can have industructive items , if you use they need decay
or Otherwise... Gameplay loop is over.. however here have two way to deal
1 its over and you need make new one.....
2 its over and you can repair at 110% cost to matain skin/stats/sentimental value
Both case is work....

Second Community Goal Sink
Since we talk about AI and Possible Meta Gaming in Dynamic Warfare , you clear alred think you can donate resource to base and base itself upgrade , another Community can be expand is toward Terraforming project can be global or individual for each house plot

Third - Vechiles
All one time use , need be cheap and easy to craft but at same time need be damaged by enemy/terrain/etc etc
why its not tied with gear.... because think something above omni frames , Tanks/Mechs/Dropship that going lead massive Guild/Group effort to build and its be exclusive edge tool to push one warfront... this rule work to AI as well

we can come up with ideas other sink and improve economy flow but guess is cover basics

 

[truekillerstar#4280]

For Crafting:
I like the idea of being able to tweak my gear to fit different builds especially if they are going to be different biomes with potential elemental types of Tsi Hu. According to the vision book, there is going to be tweaking through base stats using rare isotope drops but to what extent, only Grummz knows.

For Economy:
I do believe there has to be some sort of cost/maintenance/upkeep to gear. For me, I think the gear (excluding cosmetics since they are just visual) should be destroyed on death; which I believe the plan is that your MEK/A will blow up while ejecting the pilot. My idea is that when you get back to the hanger, the MEK/A has to be rebuilt (which I believe is currently designed to have short queue times unlike other games such as Warframe's 12 hour+ wait.

One caveat is to make sure that if someone new dies with nothing, that there is either a default weapon to use or an entry point to allow them to build themselves up.

For Vehicles:
I mostly agree with this one, I believe the current idea for vehicles is that they're just transport only. However, if they were to add Armored Vehicles like tanks, I think they should be somewhat costly but have a very powerful but slow weapons. Like a glass cannon, they would have decent mobility but when their weapons charge deal considerable damage (mostly against Kaiju); especially if when a Kaiju attacks and guilds receive some sort of credit for damage done.

 

[Pandagnome]

For Crafting:
I like the idea of being able to tweak my gear to fit different builds especially if they are going to be different biomes with potential elemental types of Tsi Hu. According to the vision book, there is going to be tweaking through base stats using rare isotope drops but to what extent, only Grummz knows.

I am really intrigued to how this will be so many ideas are flying around but how is it going to be?
If its simple and easy to grasp?

The way to progress to advance our crafting expertise could be less daughting i'd think this gives players a better experience in crafting and how to do so.

Now We move foward Economy flow
First all , This game in any manner can have industructive items , if you use they need decay
or Otherwise... Gameplay loop is over.. however here have two way to deal
1 its over and you need make new one.....
2 its over and you can repair at 110% cost to matain skin/stats/sentimental value
Both case is work....

For Economy:
I do believe there has to be some sort of cost/maintenance/upkeep to gear. For me, I think the gear (excluding cosmetics since they are just visual) should be destroyed on death; which I believe the plan is that your MEK/A will blow up while ejecting the pilot. My idea is that when you get back to the hanger, the MEK/A has to be rebuilt (which I believe is currently designed to have short queue times unlike other games such as Warframe's 12 hour+ wait.

I think decay would be good because you have to check the integrity keeping it maintained otherwise it would reduce you impact or reduce in the functions.

Completely destroyed stuff would be shocking, & i see how this can be part of the game too if you have the place to recreate your e.g. frame, building or even vehicle you just need to get the bp and the right resource types and facility to get it made.

Are we allowed to store duplicates of our frames such as if you already made a Heavy frame you can have a storage like in iron man where you can go back to get one you kept for just those occassion?

Kind of like when your thumpr got destroyed in Firefall and you could have a backup.

I think it could go in stages such as

- Decay (Certain frames/construction could decay quicker depending on Tier, rarity and its material)
- Maintenance (To keep it in good condition)
- Reduced efficiency / Function if not maintained
- Taken too much damage leading to ejection of the pilot and unit destroyed

For Vehicles:
I mostly agree with this one, I believe the current idea for vehicles is that they're just transport only. However, if they were to add Armored Vehicles like tanks, I think they should be somewhat costly but have a very powerful but slow weapons. Like a glass cannon, they would have decent mobility but when their weapons charge deal considerable damage (mostly against Kaiju); especially if when a Kaiju attacks and guilds receive some sort of credit for damage done.

I think with vehicles there could be different ways to go about with them e.g.

There could be Standard vehicle profiles:

- Glass cannon route fast and strong dmg
- Light armored and suppression fire (advanced combat bikes)
- Colossal units very slow needs help from others to super charge its Ultimate stryke weapon

Alternatively if you wanted a custom experience the vehicle can be tweaked e.g.

- Changing the rate of fire and using lower dmg ammo type
- Changing the speed of the unit but reducing amount of weapon attachment

etc etc

 

[vadio#5055]

Idea for multiples biomes/or types of damage is way to add horizontal progression in craft
I feel leveling or put in any type behind skill wall , even i enjoy alot in Ultima Online , Star Wars Galaxies , Mortal Online , Albion , Eve Online and Many others sandbox out there , still find its not nessecary to main flow of game , you craft you want , or farm crystite(aka money) or if you are rich you convert gem/cash to gold and do you thing , if you want just go and focus in Warfronts/Dynamic quest do it....

However its be depend market..... you need buy from market... you can buy ready item or
Figure out combination that lead item you desire / save this combination for later use and buy only raw materials

Why not give materials in warfront... or at last not big quantity but minor partial components
if you did this kind Structure of reward , Reward materials or item ready . Thump lose reason of exist...

One craft i dont comment usual pretty decent about consumable.....
Usual i feel neutral even add economy sink is chore craft everday to daily activitys
Its open to new life skills ( yes bdo i talk about you , eve also have plenty)

Warfronts or Nodes.. probably be next topic going drop around. near future

 

[vadio#5055]

I feel topic need fews video as example :
I lazy to find good firefall craft video of 0.5 up 0.7 patch , also Mortal Online guides below just fraction of all crafts/refining process game have , i linked fews that i feel fit to show as concept example to what i try describe above

Spoiler: Spam of videos

 

[vadio#5055]

part 2

Spoiler: more spam of videos for concept

 

[Pandagnome]

I feel topic need fews video as example :
I lazy to find good firefall craft video of 0.5 up 0.7 patch , also Mortal Online guides below just fraction of all crafts/refining process game have , i linked fews that i feel fit to show as concept example to what i try describe above

Spoiler: Spam of videos

With crafting i'd like to see a way to implement add ons ingame such as
the function of swg aide and other ways to track or check records. If there were add on's a way for those add on to be found ingame that have been verified.

That way we can rest assured that the add on is not from an unknown source or tampered.
If however it was part of the crafter information system ingame then that could be good too.

 

[vadio#5055]

EVE Online — Monthly Economic Report - July 2022 — Notícias do Steam (steampowered.com)

 

[vadio#5055]

As you can see have good economy flow , with integrate several aspects to sinks to counter ammount player produce to sustain value of currecy its hard , and must have to EM8R core gameplay

 

[Nightallen]

I will never understand this obession with perm item decay, item destruction and forcing players to deal with super complicated economies, then calling it a "must have"! Tons of games are very successful with a simple trade UI and auction house. There is absolutly no reason punish players simply for playing the game... EVER. The people who want a craft centric game and economy are a niche, a small niche. For a game trying to be crowd funded I would cater to the largest denominator and keep it simple.

 

[Pandagnome]

I will never understand this obession with perm item decay, item destruction and forcing players to deal with super complicated economies, then calling it a "must have"! Tons of games are very successful with a simple trade UI and auction house. There is absolutly no reason punish players simply for playing the game... EVER. The people who want a craft centric game and economy are a niche, a small niche. For a game trying to be crowd funded I would cater to the largest denominator and keep it simple.

If they have crafting as an option and for those who are not willing to craft can contact an npc or player to do that.
I do like the different sides of the game because if needing a break from crafting could do the other things the game would offer.

Have to admit the many ideas seems like how could they do all this? i am sure they have to priortise with the main core gameplay first and then build around it. Although i am not a game dev so this is just my guess, but like to see crafting because it is satisfying making something after all that work.

I think Em8er will be a game that will have something for everyone those who are more casual and those who are more skillful if the Em8er team can make it a good balance i'll be impressed!

 

[vadio#5055]

If you have any stuff in you house with is permanent , never break
Our whole world economy not work.... in fact whole capitalism fall

in fact most stuffs in our world is made to break after x time/use , to industry keep produce and economy keep cycle

in Any moment i said to have local banks or local auction.... i know the pain UO/BDO/Galaxies/Darkfall/Mortal/Eve Online in fact make global... make no pain transaction items between players... give us buy order , dont make carry stuffs in invetory pain or heavy

My vision that locate resource , extract , refining , craft , build gear , figth against kaiju or terraforming planet , gear/tool break is core of gameplay loop in this vision , craft never lose value compare with all 99% mmo games out there where craft lose any reason in first month

This desing allow you make you own gear , or just do "Dynamic Events/Quests" and get money to replace you gear , and if you are lazy enough allow Cash shop coins be excharge for In game credits give another revenue to company and same time allow people dont want spend money but want bunny suit skin can get (as inflation control)

I know decay and permanent loss is controversial , but its nessecary step to matain craft system in place and thump system in place worth , or people forget about firefall 1.0? can cite any mmo that its not sandbox , that have craft failed/no use / destroy after 2 week to 1 month in xpac or release

My whole love with firefall is around patch - 0.4 - 0.5 that can be consider sandbox approach
anything beyond 1.0 is consider themepark , aka wow and ffxiv , my hope is this game not going be generic themepark clone with guns

And when i mean Dynamic Event or Quest is mean several side job you can do
Hauling missions
Stealth missions
Building Bases or Terraforming Mission
Exploration Mission
Scout/Report
Farm?/Lumberjack
etc etc you got but

all this NPC relation is give by money or
if devs want compromise
A : bit you can leveling Reputation with Military and Sci Fi boys... and eventual they start give components as reward or money but never token or ready stuff ,
B : or be stupid insane hard grind this tokens and yes its give ready items but average ones . never top tier or good with low quantity usage/high decay

Point its .... even is exist Eve its minor part of generate items, since in eve pretty easy you lost whole ship/gear by get ganked and this gear is gone , attacker get like 1 or 2 of 12 modules and in em8r since they said no pvp , and dead like eve can consider brutal loss and hard to many , i believe gradual loss need exist and best way to come

Guess is resume if game be hard enough to make you die,, in this case you set up easy way to get faction/reputation reward or if mission in question is stupid and you need set bar high enough to not devalue crafted gear , its why just money max comp best approach

Ref : Loyalty Points - EVE University Wiki or LP Store - Return on ISK (fuzzwork.co.uk)

 

[Nightallen]

If you have any stuff in you house with is permanent , never break
Our whole world economy not work.... in fact whole capitalism fall

in fact most stuffs in our world is made to break after x time/use , to industry keep produce and economy keep cycle

in Any moment i said to have local banks or local auction.... i know the pain UO/BDO/Galaxies/Darkfall/Mortal/Eve Online in fact make global... make no pain transaction items between players... give us buy order , dont make carry stuffs in invetory pain or heavy

My vision that locate resource , extract , refining , craft , build gear , figth against kaiju or terraforming planet , gear/tool break is core of gameplay loop in this vision , craft never lose value compare with all 99% mmo games out there where craft lose any reason in first month

This desing allow you make you own gear , or just do "Dynamic Events/Quests" and get money to replace you gear , and if you are lazy enough allow Cash shop coins be excharge for In game credits give another revenue to company and same time allow people dont want spend money but want bunny suit skin can get (as inflation control)

I know decay and permanent loss is controversial , but its nessecary step to matain craft system in place and thump system in place worth , or people forget about firefall 1.0? can cite any mmo that its not sandbox , that have craft failed/no use / destroy after 2 week to 1 month in xpac or release

My whole love with firefall is around patch - 0.4 - 0.5 that can be consider sandbox approach
anything beyond 1.0 is consider themepark , aka wow and ffxiv , my whole concept relay idea this game not going be generic themepark clone with guns

And when i mean Dynamic Event or Quest is mean several side job you can do
Hauling missions
Stealth missions
Building Bases or Terraforming Mission
Exploration Mission
Scout/Report
etc etc you got but

all this NPC relation is give by money or
if devs want compromise bit you can leveling Reputation with Military and Sci Fi boys... and eventual they start give components as reward or money but never token or ready stuff , or be stupid insane hard grind this token and yes you can buy off but you need be like Godlike level of Unreal Tournament Bot

Point its .... even is exist Eve its minor part of generate items, since in eve pretty easy you lost whole ship/gear by get ganked and in em8r since they said no pvp , and dead brutal loss is hard to many , i believe gradual loss need exist

Guess is resume if game be hard enough to make you die,, in this case you set up easy way to get faction/reputation reward or if mission in question is stupid and you need set bar high enough to not devalue crafted gear , its why just money max comp best approach

Ref : Loyalty Points - EVE University Wiki or LP Store - Return on ISK (fuzzwork.co.uk)

The big difference between real world capitolism and a game, is ITS A GAME. Noone needs full capitolism economies in a game especily ones that are supposed to be about war. Every miliary in the world gives you all your equipment for free if you are in it. But again you dont need that kinda of realism so I am all for adding crafting and mercenary like game play. I would say most people log on to games like this is described to be to fight and shoot and do "war" things". Realistic economies just aren't needed and in fact will cause more players to end up leaving the game for others.

There is a reason EVE only has about 15000 to 25000 concurrent players for years. Because regardless of how often that its stated that "super realistic economies are needed" only a very small amount of players actually stick around and keep playing games like that. Same with the survival games where when you die you lose everything. A few very vocal people people keep saying every games need that harsh system but all those game retain a very small population.

I get that there are some players who want stuff like that but they are a small minority. Again I say if you are crowd funding a game. You will need to cater to as many players as possible to fund your game. So adding niche mechanics that actually piss most players off is not the right way to go.


I am all for adding crafting and building and all that stuff, just keep it simple so new players can quickly learn it and can do it if they want and buy on an auction or NPCs if not.

 

[vadio#5055]

Is big diference between people play firefall prior 0.7 and people that play in 1.0 its as i said is two kind stly game with same name... for me i have no interresing in only raid gameplay loop that plague in mmo industry , and say more is reason to firefall die , they cant compete against big ones...
If they take this route , fine , i out after all its they vision/money/dev/efforts/product not my

1 - You argue is piss off many players but reality we dont know , they dont know either , most this community dont pool out whats kind the game they want if more like 1.0 firefall or 0.5 firefall

2 - another flaw you argument that eve even with 25-40k player online in one Shard/Server/"Istance"
Meanwhile New world only can hold up 2.5k per server
FFXIV bare can hold 5k per server
WoW as well 5k per server

Point its even you have all this 10 million player in WOW/FFXIV and even 5k is decent number you at end when you going do Raids all you need 20 fellows/mates lets say 200 to wintergrasp/alterac valley you whole level interaction players even you have more pool to do you dont need

In Eve other hands something isolate like just 1v1 gank can become stupid war between whole server . game envolve around you , you are not Lore Reader in passive story

I wish push foward this discussion but game i want its not equal game you want

 

[Pandagnome]

If you have any stuff in you house with is permanent , never break

My bike frame so far a titanium alloy frame but i guess it will break one day!

Guess it depends on the material so some can be very strong and with care last for very long time.
Some things can be beautiful and yet break into many pieces like plates, glass etc.

Noone needs full capitolism economies in a game especily ones that are supposed to be about war.

If people with detail charts and graphs they can have but it can seem very complicated for some.
Too much complication is better left in the real world i think so.

 

[Omnires]

Fun fact. In real life some people use video game economies as case studies in how some real life economies works. In face there was a few countries that changed their based on what they seen people doing in MMOs and noted that those same loopholes existed in their real life ones. Some nations even watch different MMOs every time the devs make changes to their in-game economies to see what happens.

It is also like how some events in MMOs are not case studies doctors as they showed different types of people reacted to a pandemic within the game world. Case and point like one that happened inside of WOW years ago.

And this is one about WOW for the people who did know.