Why Grummz is wrong on his stance against "Anime-Style" characters

[rushnagar#4427]

Hello folks. If you've been following Grummz tweets for a while, you may have seen occasional remarks like this:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1374968299012845571

(For reference, the latest render I could get of a EM-8ER character looks like this

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1369315010866933760

. It definitely isn't a anime style, but as you will see it won't matter. let me explain myself...).

And, if you've been following Grummz for a bit longer, you'd know that doesn't make sense.
This game was already bashed for being "ecchi/hentai". Grummz tweeted about it, actually. I can't find the tweet because he deleted all tweets from before 2021, but I remember the content on it, vaguely.
He posted a pic of FF12 Viera dressed in scantily clad outfits and said something to the effect of, "FF12 has models that look like this and they don't get bashed for being lewd. But our game gets called a hentai game, despite being more tame?".
Which is a reasonable response for most people, but Grummz should know that people (specially journalists) are unfair. He tweets about it, after all.

You know people aren't going to target your game for being anime, they're going to target your game for reasons like "Grummz hates journalists" or "Grummz is right wing", and that'll be the real reason. They might lie about the game being lewd or about the game being anime (They already lied about it being lewd), but they don't actually care.
Or maybe they care. But, the bunny girl model posted above? It violates SJW standards anyways. In fact, I bet that if a model like the one you posted got 3D printed and thrown into Amazon, it'd be rejected.
In other words, this change will not stop you from being attacked, AND surely there are players who want to see the characters in a anime artstyle. What do you gain?

 

[Wyntyr]

Hmmm....I'm not quite sure what you're complaining about...could you be more specific/direct? Thanks!

 

[rushnagar#4427]

Its nothing hard to understand. Here's a tl;dr of the above:

Grummz says that if in game models were made in a anime style, journalists would slander it/companies would reject it, so he needs to do them in a different style.
He's wrong. Nobody really cares if your game is styled in a certain way. There are already people saying that this game is "hentai". Journalists will target his game because Grummz is outspoken against journalists.
The only thing this achieved was making the skins less appealing.

 

[Wyntyr]

Aha. That i recall Em.8ER wasn't going to be an anime art style game. And I do agree that regardless of art style folks will disagree with, or bring trollish behavior to, Em.8ER because of various other Grummz views on any number of subjects. With that said, last I checked, your opinion about the anime art style being more appealing than the game's actual art style is just that...one person's opine.

 

[rushnagar#4427]

With that said, last I checked, your opinion about the anime art style being more appealing than the game's actual art style is just that...one person's opine.

You checked? By that surely you mean there was a poll somewhere in the EM-8ER discord/twitter asking what style people would prefer....

 

[Ronyn]

You checked? By that surely you mean there was a poll somewhere in the EM-8ER discord/twitter asking what style people would prefer....

The opposite actually.
By that he means there is no comprehensive poll on what the majority of people would prefer.
Without that, it's just one person or another's personal opinion on what art style would go over better.

 

[rushnagar#4427]

Well, yeah. If Grummz thinks that modeling their characters in a certain way will get them in trouble with censors, then there's no reason for him to bother people by asking them for input...
But that seems unrealistic to me. If EM-8ER is going to be targeted anyways, then I don't see why one wouldn't bother asking.

And to break with the maybes and hypotheticals: Yes, I think a vote like this would lead to anime models winning.
Why? I'm a newtype. It seems popular with the crowd. You see people tweeting anime at Grummz every day. Also, most of those navels are by japanese artists, so... You know.

 

[Wyntyr]

LMAO...Grummz modelling characters a certain way so Em.8ER won't get in trouble with censors...that's a good one!

 

[rushnagar#4427]

There's nothing odd with that statement. Actually, didn't I already say this a few posts ago?

Grummz says that if in game models were made in a anime style, journalists would slander it/companies would reject it, so he needs to do them in a different style.

I thought you agreed?

 

[Ronyn]

Well, yeah. If Grummz thinks that modeling their characters in a certain way will get them in trouble with censors, then there's no reason for him to bother people by asking them for input...
But that seems unrealistic to me. If EM-8ER is going to be targeted anyways, then I don't see why one wouldn't bother asking.

I made no comment on that issue. To be clear though, do you believe there is a viable way to gain valuable data on this subject? If so what method would you suggest?

And to break with the maybes and hypotheticals: Yes, I think a vote like this would lead to anime models winning.
Why? I'm a newtype. It seems popular with the crowd. You see people tweeting anime at Grummz every day. Also, most of those navels are by japanese artists, so... You know.

Maybe, maybe not. At this time there is no way to be certain either way. So it remains just an opinion.
For what it's worth: there is absolutely nothing wrong with holding that opinion.

 

[rushnagar#4427]

I made no comment on that issue. To be clear though, do you believe there a viable way to gain valuable data on this subject? If so what method would you suggest?

I think this is what people would generally do:
1. Finish the current model (I'll call them photorealistic models for now because I saw them being referred to that way in twitter)
2. Make different model, a anime styled one.
3. Post both on twitter and discord
4. Open a poll on twitter, since it has that feature
5. Open a poll only for patrons (I think it'd have to be on Discord), see if it ranks differently.

Then it'd usually be up for someone in the company to gauge the data.
That being said, I think someone who worked at a proper department (PR team? Marketing Department?) would be able to formulate something better than my current plan, and I don't claim to be a expert on this in any way.

And on that note, there's still a chance I might be wrong and censorship IS going to rise. Maybe Grummz has some insider info. So I'd like to see what he or any of the devs have to say on that topic.

 

[Ronyn]

I think this is what people would generally do:
1. Finish the current model (I'll call them photorealistic models for now because I saw them being referred to that way in twitter)
2. Make different model, a anime styled one.
3. Post both on twitter and discord
4. Open a poll on twitter, since it has that feature
5. Open a poll only for patrons (I think it'd have to be on Discord), see if it ranks differently.

Then it'd usually be up for someone in the company to gauge the data.
That being said, I think someone who worked at a proper department (PR team? Marketing Department?) would be able to formulate something better than my current plan, and I don't claim to be a expert on this in any way.

Sadly my freind..... none of that will give very relevent date due to multiple factors.
Speaking as someone with many years of PR and marketing Experience, there isn't a viable way to gain any real functional knowledge on the question of "would anime style or non anime style lead to better sales of the game".

And on that note, there's still a chance I might be wrong and censorship IS going to rise. Maybe Grummz has some insider info. So I'd like to see what he or any of the devs have to say on that topic.

I feel you. No one has a crystal ball after all eh... I guess all we can do is wait and see.
In the meantime we do our best to guage what we should do with the projects we make..
then hope and pray we made the right decision.

 

[rushnagar#4427]

Sadly my freind..... none of that will give very relevent date due to multiple factors.
Speaking as someone with many years of PR and marketing Experience, there isn't a viable way to gain any real functional knowledge on the question of "would anime style or non anime style lead to better sales of the game".

Well, I mostly made that small plan with the goal of learning what the people looking at EM-8ER right now (looking at EM-8ER on social media and testing the backer builds) want. That seems like a important query.
But wait there because I just read something interesting.

There isn't a viable way to gain any real functional knowledge on the question of "would anime style or non anime style lead to better sales of the game".

Lets make a hypothetical. Even if you saw that 75%~ of your current playerbase liked X, there wouldn't be a higher chance that any future players would also like X?

 

[Ronyn]

Well, I mostly made that small plan with the goal of learning what the people looking at EM-8ER right now (looking at EM-8ER on social media and testing the backer builds) want. That seems like a important query.
But wait there because I just read something interesting.

View attachment 4371
Lets make a hypothetical. Even if you saw that 75%~ of your current playerbase liked X, there wouldn't be a higher chance that any future players would also like X?

I'm unable to gather the time to put together a ted talk on this issue at the moment.

At any rate I appreciate your enthusiasm for the game. Cheers.

 

[Silv3r Shadow]

I looked up on what those 'removed products' are (miyuki takara migma action figure)

I think they probably removed the anime girl figma cause she looks and is Under of age

 

[Pandagnome]

You know people aren't going to target your game for being anime, they're going to target your game for reasons

They might target the game because its made in America ?

He's wrong. Nobody really cares if your game is styled in a certain way.

I don't know about that, wondered if the art style was taken into account for how it could handle and cope with many players in one server if we had photo realistic would that just make the performance not so good?

Grummz is outspoken against journalists.

I am glad someone is because not many of us are!.

But, the bunny girl model posted above? It violates SJW standards anyways.

Sjw's cannot control everything it reminds me of the cartoon pinky and the brain their actions always go back to the drawing board to rethink of ways to take over the world!

our current playerbase liked X, there wouldn't be a higher chance that any future players would also like X?

Lets go for a vegetable analogy tomatoes

Local shoppers Liked Tomatoes
General shoppers Liked Cherry Tomatoes

What sold most was ........... Tomato Ketchup

Even though most liked tomatoes they preferred the tomato ketchup because it was easier to apply and a longer shelf life than tomatoes.

 

[random1298#7393]

The Space Jam Weasels and the Western mainstream games journalists will attack the Waifu designs of Em8er regardless of whether they are "Anime style" or "other style". And this is because at the root of the S J W and Feminist movement, regarding this issue, it's always been about censoring and/or removing/banning anything that would appeal to the straight male audience.

They'll do this by hiding behind the mask of "equality" and "diversity", and also claim that such female character designs "harms women in real life", "sets unrealistic beauty standards" and "objectifies women" in order to gain and gather the sympathy vote from the public.

Therefore, I feel the game will be attacked regardless of what style the Waifus are depicted in. However, there may be reason to suggest that there would be more venom towards the Waifus if they are depicted in the Anime style as opposed to "other style", given that these S J Ws and games journalists have an outright and seething hatred towards hot Anime female characters right now. Anime style basically allows them to immediately use the "ecchi" and/or "h£ntai" card.

I guess the way to stop these attacks is to make every female character look like Ellie from Borderlands.

And of course, they don't say a single word about male characters or "husbandos" that are objectified for the straight female audience. Either that or they praise such fanservice and make excuses for it. So much for that "equality" they are always screaming about.

Source: My own experience and interactions with S J Ws and Feminists across all forms of social media regarding the culture war for the last decade or so.

 

[Pandagnome]

I looked up on what those 'removed products' are (miyuki takara migma action figure)

I think they probably removed the anime girl figma cause she looks and is Under of age

This reminds me of a time where we were accused of being children with our short avie group because of our short statue and some had anime big eyes, we got banned from the sim. Everyone else were the usual human height of 5ft -6ft something big butt big boobs this big that but there was no sign/rules that you cannot be a certain height but it did say no child allowed.

Not sure if our height was an indication of age or they just did not like our look but clearly we are Tinies.