Alternate frame/suit types?

[TankHunter678]

So we all know about the omniframe, the half mecha half exoskeleton power armor that mark has shown off.

Spoiler: reasons and stuff

As a mecha fan it leaves me disappointed, it looks flimsy with an exposed spine, the pilot is completely out in the open, the upper body is supported by an integrity field instead of actual support from the lower body. I showed it to a friend of mine who is a big mecha fan (Mechwarrior, Armored Core, Robotech/Macross, etc) who also reads a lot of sci-fi novels and he was upset with the design as well.

I brought up the energy shields, I brought up the integrity field to which he replied with: EMP.

I told him the EMP shielding reason to which he pointed out that EMP shielding means the system shuts down to avoid overload and melting down to an unusable state. Which means that both the energy shields and integrity field would go down anyways.

He also brought up that in any front line combat unit you need the most essential parts armored up, in this case the human pilot being the most essential yet its out in the open. An opinion I mirror. He also brought up that with the exposed pilot the head unit is completely pointless.

He eventually said that is Mark wants to go with an exposed pilot then he should of done the exosquad route and have an armored canopy around the pilot, while still having view ports through which we could see the pilot.

(Side note: When I told him the name of the alien species he tried to figure out where Mark got the name. He eventually translated it to mean "Cry Nothing" in Chinese. Which made both of us laugh since he is basically poking fun at The9 with the alien design. He is not upset about not getting Firefall back, instead he will make The9 the enemy we shoot every day.)

It looks like though that the design is mostly final so hence this thread.

Basically what other types of frames/suits would you like to see besides the omniframe?

I personally would like to see base 2 alternatives to the omniframe: A full on mecha designed around being well armored and well armed with heavy weaponry but limited jump jet ability, as well as a powersuit that is more like Firefall Assault/Recon Battleframes or IS suits. Limited in the arsenal it can bring, very squishy in durability, but designed around being the most mobile thing on the battlefield with a good chunk of flying capabilities (basically since it cannot go toe to toe with Tsihu beastmode it just boosts up and stays out of range while pelting them with specialized weapons).

Basically planting the Omniframe as a midpoint between two extremes, while also basically being a hybrid of the two which fits with its name.

 

[DeyjaVou]

Initially I would have said "One base type, and you determine rough class and playstyle by changing base stats and up", but I might not be totally opposed to a few base types.

On second thought, I'm sticking to my idea of one base type. If you have a comprehensive set of base stats you can modify you can create any conceivable base 'type', class, or playstyle. Having a single base frame that you modify would also greatly support the concept of forward operating bases during Sieges, which are what I perceive to be our open-world answer to raids. Large alien fortresses that you must construct siege equipment to destroy. If some of those constructions are stations where you could re-outfit your Omniframe, perhaps switching between saved loadouts or configurations, you could very easily construct your own class set. Players could switch between optimized snipers, AOE wave clear frames, etc. Your entire loadout, from weapons, abilities, etc, all changed in seconds in the field during sieges.

Since the frames are technically vehicles, having multiple types would prevent the above unless you owned all base types. The more artificial restrictions we impose on the player because of an inability to create a system that permits total freedom of player design, the more of a pain it will be to explore an MMO which is already taking a risk with totally horizontal progression, a model that will fail to attract the typical "be the very best" type MMOs harbor unless you create sets of pseudoprogression and achievements for cosmetics those people can latch on to.

 

[EvilKitten]

omni-
combining form
prefix: omni-

1. all; of all things.
   "omniscient"
   • in all ways or places.
     "omnicompetent"

If you have multiple frames it doesn't seem like they would be very omni to me...

 

[Vladplaya]

I am with @DeyjaVou, just have one frame with interchangeable everything. You want heavier mecha? Put more armor, wanna have some special shoulder canon? Put proper attachment.

It just makes more sense for the operators to have single customizable frame with all these parts that are interchangeable, instead of each person owning a warehouse worth of complete frames.

Anyways I guess at the end of the day, you get the same result. So yes, I works like to see less/more armored frames, and ability to run around and fight without the mecha, although I am not sure how this would fit into the gameplay.

 

[TankHunter678]

Maybe I should not have put the spoiler in...

Basically I do not like the visual design of the omniframe. I honestly would not be surprised if "put more armor" equates to "change a numeric value, still have to deal with the pilot being exposed". "Strip armor for more speed" equates to "change a numeric value, visually the same".

I guess I just want options of a baseline that leans more towards one direction or another, while having a different visual that was made more for that direction. Instead of being stuck with just the jack of all trades hybrid that... honestly bugs me (and my friends).

omni-
combining form
prefix: omni-

1. all; of all things.
   "omniscient"
   • in all ways or places.
     "omnicompetent"

If you have multiple frames it doesn't seem like they would be very omni to me...

*points to Mechwarrior Clan Tech Omnimechs*Omni can also mean universal parts. Like when it comes to clan tech which has a large array of purpose made Mechs that all use parts with the same connection linkages. Allowing one to do things such as replace the entire leg structure with one from a different mech cause you got one mech with destroyed legs and another mech with a destroyed torso but still good legs.

In our case the omniframe is basically the hybrid of different styles. A jack of all trades combination.

 

[Maven]

I'm gonna be a bit of a spoilsport here, and slightly off topic AND I may be repeating myself and a few others here when I say this. Remember that everything depends on the funding.

This is not a game built on a 100 mill dollar mound of cash. It's not a game that's being supported by suits in limos, carrying large suitcases filled with wads of green. It's a game being supported by an enthusiastic, yet finicky, community. Every single line of art drawn, has to be done so with that one singular aspect in mind.

The very concept of the omni-frame is just that. One frame that will be modded and tuned to suit every style of gameplay. In fact, I would hope that people do not expect any sort of visual modifications to the suit, based on the style of gameplay, right off the bat. Unless the members of the community are willing to stump up massive amounts of money to see a game that 'could be' (yes, we are still talking in terms of 'could be'), become a defiant 'YES', do go in expecting only barebones systems.

As much as the multiple frame idea sounds great, its simply not a viable route at the moment. This is what we have for now. This is what we will have to go with, albeit with a few minor tweaks down the line.

Mark has stated in his omni-frame description on the website, that players can own multiple omni-frames, each built to suit a particular style of gameplay, and stashed in a personal garage of sorts. Leaving the frame to fight enemies would probably be ineffectual and suicidal.

While the design may be controversial (I do like it tbh), a few minor tweaks should be sufficient to make most of the community happy. And if indeed there are to be other 'options' when it comes to frames, I personally would like a lighter variant of the FF battleframes for gameplay inside caves/buildings/other enclosed spaces. This question was posed to Mark, to which he responded that, 'for now', Ember is pure open space gameplay, i.e. no closed spaces.

The lore tidbits that have been added with the 'Tsihu' reveal indicates ancient alien tech and technological ruins on EM-8ER. This suggests that perhaps down the line we may get lighter suit variants for romps within these ruins.

 

[Squid Boss]

Big budget game: Sure, let's think about it.

Ember: No.

Let's face it. You're going to like something I hate and I'm going to hate something you like. If it were seemingly possible to make many variations we'd probably be doing it but I highly doubt it'll get the funding to scrape out the minimum working parts as it is. :\

 

[MattHunX]

As long as every frame part changed is visually represented with differences in the plates of armor, their thickness, the amount of the mech's surface they cover (including cockpit), it is an...acceptable design. I would either prefer FF-like frames, or a mech where the pilot is covered. This in-between version looks weird and awkward. And off-putting, even if I cannot see it, unless I use some free-camera function. Others can still see it.

It would actually make me like the mech concept, if my character wasn't spread-eagle inside the chassis like that.

 

[TankHunter678]

@Maven @Squid Boss
I want to say I was not expecting this idea to be a right now kind of thing. Right off the bat I knew we were going to have 1 frame to work with to save money. I was in the Discord at the time Grummz said that. Later on if we got more funding was there the possibility of other frames. Grummz even on the discord talked about possibly having a tier system.

So has @Grummz officially given up on that tiers thing he was talking about? Are we only going to have just the omniframe and that's it?

Cause that is kinda what I wanted to talk about with this thread. Alternatives later down the line.

Cause I want visual differences to match the playstyle difference. Especially given the amalgamation of mech, exosuit, power armor thing that is the omniframe.


Also to be perfectly honest. We could fight these Tsihu outside of the omniframe. The only problem is the Beast Mode. The humanoid form we could handle, especially in Firefall style Battleframes.

 

[Krhys]

Personally, I'm confused what the argument here is:

Omniframe with sniper rifle and light armour (to keep movement speed high) = FF Recon style frame
Omniframe with heavy weapon and heavy armour (slows down movement) = FF Dread style frame
Omniframe with healing 'weapon' and abilities and medium armour (to fit lots of good abilities) = FF Biotech style frame
Omniframe with... I think you get the picture.

And those are just a few. I'm sure you could fit a heavy weapon to a low armour suit and visa versa, it's up to you how you want to load out the many omniframes available in your garage.

 

[Squid Boss]

I didn't think you were asking for it right now.

I just think that what all went down with Firefall and how Ember is being handled we need to remain very focused on the current objective and always keep in mind the limited resources.

We all know how things can be taken out of context and the real meaning of something be lost as it is roughly spoken time and time again. Not faulting anyone for dreaming of the future but that future doesn't exist, not until it is funded and starts, since that is pretty much how this is going.

I'd be all for variations and possibly class types of Omniframe but right now with so little, basically no details, trying to speculate is near impossible let alone even trying to design.

 

[Maven]

@TankHunter678 Oh yes, I'd believe the visual differences are the whole point of the omni-frame. Having multiple frames all looking the same would honestly make it a very boring approach. Though again, that's not something we will have from the outset. The whole approach would be as simple as the 'recons' being lighter, lithe variants of the omniframe, beefy arms and legs replaced with a slim version to give it that feeling of a light frame, and the tanks being larger versions, with even bulkier attachments and possibly a cockpit cover. But yes, the omni-frame is technically the 'skeleton' for it all.

The whole point is that there is so much about this game that is still nothing more than a thought. While hopes and dreams are nice and fun, it is always good to have a realistic view of what exactly we can achieve with 3k to 5k odd people on 9-5 day jobs and with families to support.

And yes, we could possibly fight the Tsihu humanoid forms on feet, but seeing as they are capable of shifting between forms at will and with ease, I doubt that would last very long.

 

[TankHunter678]

Personally, I'm confused what the argument here is:

Omniframe with sniper rifle and light armour (to keep movement speed high) = FF Recon style frame
Omniframe with heavy weapon and heavy armour (slows down movement) = FF Dread style frame
Omniframe with healing 'weapon' and abilities and medium armour (to fit lots of good abilities) = FF Biotech style frame
Omniframe with... I think you get the picture.

And those are just a few. I'm sure you could fit a heavy weapon to a low armour suit and visa versa, it's up to you how you want to load out the many omniframes available in your garage.

Well in the omniframe revealed thread there were people talking about how the omniframe design does not work with what sniper players want as far as visuals go. Too big, too bulky, too exposed.

I personally cannot see how to make a engineer style gameplay work with the omniframe, its too much mech. Too much it's the source of firepower. (takes away a ton of my enjoyment because I like defensive engineer turret gameplay...)

I also do not see how you can make it work as a healing frame, once again too much mech and everyone seems locked on this idea that we would, and should, be completely defenseless without the omniframe. Which would mean once the shield goes down the pilot, who is completely exposed, goes splat. Not much room for a healer. Maybe a janitor.

The design would sorta work for a dread style, except its visually underarmored. All in the pursuit of "humanizing" the frame without understanding that the pilot is kinda the mind, heart, and soul of a mech and it is by virtue of them being in the mech piloting it that brings a mech to life and makes it "human".

I'd be all for variations and possibly class types of Omniframe but right now with so little, basically no details, trying to speculate is near impossible let alone even trying to design.

That was not stopping everyone earlier. Why should it stop them now?

 

[Squid Boss]

That was not stopping everyone earlier. Why should it stop them now?

Not saying it was stopping anyone. Not saying anyone should stop dreaming of things to come.

Only saying that, given how Ember is set to develop, we should really live in the now.

What we really need is a lot more information so we can better channel these ideas instead of resorting to wishful thinking. I always tried to throw out ideas for Firefall but I'm not throwing out many here unless it is as generic as possible. Don't have enough to work with. There are good ideas out there all the same.

 

[Ronyn]

I personally cannot see how to make a engineer style gameplay work with the omniframe, .....
I also do not see how you can make it work as a healing frame,....

We are still a ways away from Grummz deciding exactly which roles and capabilities we will see in Ember but I can at least assure you that roles like turret laying engineer or support focused medic are not inherently off limits just because of the design of the omniframe. There is nothing stopping a mech from throwing down turrets, and in mech games like Hawken you'll find the medic equivalent called the technician. It even has a repair beam (read: heal beam for mechs). If Grummz wants engineers and "medics" in the game there is nothing preventing it.

Grummz officially given up on that tiers thing he was talking about? Are we only going to have just the omniframe and that's it?

In the short term the focus is on the one omnimech. Teirs and potentially more visual indicators have not been ruled out for the future. I want to stress that we want to avoid inflating expectations so for now it is just the one omnimech on deck.

 

[Omnires]

I'm still for the idea that Omniframes are a kind of pseudo frame and their real role is to be a kind of endoskeleton or core for an even larger mecha.

Kind of like how in some sci-fi stories the cybersuits the people wear may giving superhuman abilities, but the real purpose of the cybersuits is to help the wearers better link to and pilot large mechas.

 

[Pandagnome]

Omniframes can imagine is just the standard this can be changed with different points for customization
that way people can have a unique mech to their taste and ability.

I got to admit i love this idea

but the real purpose of the cybersuits is to help the wearers better link to and pilot large mechas.

 

[Nunaden]

...important stuff…

i think you guys kinda missed the words in OMNI-FRAME!
It's just a FRAME not a full equipped battlesuit... the frames back in FF were the same... they were just an Exosceleton, armor and places for cores and abilities... that was exactly the frame. The rest, abilities, cores etc. weren't really part of the frames but parts that did FIT into the frame.

Same for the omni frame... its probably just the pilot assembly, the hulls, mechanics and some places where other things fit in...
and none ever said that the pilot isn't able to wear armor himself xO

 

[Grummz]

I didn't promise multiple frames on any occasion, even with tiers. In fact, I've specifically said that tiers would be customization options but not different frame styles because of budget. A single omniframe with replaceable inner components and weapons for different roles is for sure. Visual upgrades on on the omniframe will be possible with the way its built, but maybe not implementable because of budget. We just have to see how far we cab get.

Also, while I've said I'm leaning towards tiers, we just don't know yet how the system will play out.

 

[TankHunter678]

Well thanks for the clarity grummz.