Why I am upset

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Gigabear

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Apr 23, 2017
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#1
First, my perspective. I am a firm believer in "Every Voice Matters." Yes, the very same corporate value that Blizzard holds ironically I hold as proper ideal. Crixa had up until fairly recently been doing a stellar job living up to this. Being anti-censorship was the primary reason I was so excited for and backed this project, even more so than the game itself. I firmly believe the best process is one that tries to involve everyone as much as possible.

And there in lies the problem. When a studio artificially amplifies a voice, it can ONLY come at the expense of the rest of the community. In Crixa's case it has been done wholesale. I am not saying the community team itself is a problem however, more so the degree of amplification and the manner in which it was done.

Speaking to the selection process, there were no applications that I am aware of. The participants were hand-picked by Ronyn. He had his criteria I know, but the manner this was done made it impossible for anyone who might have had an interest in joining to express it unless they were told it was going to be a thing. And the only people who seemed to have been told this were those selected for it. Ironically the community had no involvement in the formation of the community team.

To my other point about amplification, the permissions granted to them were not simply intended for use in some solemn duty for the good of all. They are deemed "perks" of the position, to be used however they wish. Often they are used for fun and to cut up, which would be fine if everyone else could do it too, but they cannot.

In effect we now have a scenario where the community manager has created an exclusive group of super-members, who pretty much have monopolized most of the non-peak traffic on the Discord.

The discord used to be fun, but now all of the "power" has been reserved to a handful of people. It's so restricted that it's essentially useless if you don't have a colored name.

All that aside, my primary complaint is that there is a standing policy that top backers cannot be on that team. This policy is unfair because it was not disclosed so we could make an informed decision when deciding to become max tiers, and especially because it is not uniformly enforced.

I ask the policy be rescinded, or applied to all of us the same. Either works for me, double standards do not. That is all.
 

Grummz

$6k package
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Jul 25, 2016
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#2
Hi Giga,

You have a direct line to me. We can have a call anytime. I tried to message you on Discord after I read this but either I am unfriended or blocked again. Send me a text and we can arrange a time.
 

Ronyn

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Jul 26, 2016
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#3
For clarity sake-

Speaking to the selection process, there were no applications that I am aware of. The participants were hand-picked by Ronyn. He had his criteria I know, but the manner this was done made it impossible for anyone who might have had an interest in joining to express it unless they were told it was going to be a thing. And the only people who seemed to have been told this were those selected for it. Ironically the community had no involvement in the formation of the community team.
This is a misunderstanding.
It is true that there are/were no applications, and that I hand selected the members (or rather, I approved each one).
However it's always been possible for people to ask to join and/or offer help. As many of the members on the team had voiced interest at one point, and a few other people being considered for the team now are being considered because they voiced interest while also showing some of the qualifications I look for.

If the real point here is you'd like to see some applications for the CT, I can take that into advisement.

To my other point about amplification, the permissions granted to them were not simply intended for use in some solemn duty for the good of all. They are deemed "perks" of the position, to be used however they wish. Often they are used for fun and to cut up, which would be fine if everyone else could do it too, but they cannot.
This is inaccurate.
The permissions granted to them are primarily for utility (moderation, updates, ect) and advertisement (gifs and memes in main lobby).
While the latter does come with the added benefit that they can occasionally post something silly of their own choosing, it does in fact have limits. I do view those little extra silly moments as a perk for all of the work they do. That does not mean they have free reign to do whatever they want with it.

In effect we now have a scenario where the community manager has created an exclusive group of super-members, who pretty much have monopolized most of the non-peak traffic on the Discord.
I would wager that the main reason the community team is the most vocal during non peak hours is because they are meant to create some form of activity when there is a lack of activity. Their goal is to entice other people to join in on the fun, not monopolize anything.

The discord used to be fun, but now all of the "power" has been reserved to a handful of people. It's so restricted that it's essentially useless if you don't have a colored name.
I don't follow your point here. When exactly was this period of "fun"? I've been in this role since very close to the beginning of the project. Very few discord rules have changed this entire time.
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#4
Hi Giga,

You have a direct line to me. We can have a call anytime. I tried to message you on Discord after I read this but either I am unfriended or blocked again. Send me a text and we can arrange a time.
I feel like my position in the community has deteriorated to the point there is no fixing it regardless. If the community is agreeable to the current regime as they seem to be, then perhaps I should focus my energy elsewhere.

I'll leave the friend request up, but I'm going to split the discord and just get on with my life. I was here to create a positive experience, and that is no longer possible.
 

Pandagnome

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#5
First, my perspective. I am a firm believer in "Every Voice Matters." Yes
Yes i agree with this even if i disagree with some voices.

When a studio artificially amplifies a voice, it can ONLY come at the expense of the rest of the community.
That could happen, and what if we had an Em8er Counsel that various Em8er members of different parts of the world non-paid/paid support are included. A small selected Em8er team members are joined in then in this Em8er Counsel the community voice could be less artificial.

Imagine it like the jedi counsel and if we had something like that ingame to see our characters too.
1654862999716.jpeg

If the real point here is you'd like to see some applications for the CT, I can take that into advisement.
That would be good & to include the requirements too.

The discord used to be fun, but now all of the "power" has been reserved to a handful of people. It's so restricted that it's essentially useless if you don't have a colored name.
I am not into discord, the forum is much better this must be the 100th time i have said this :D
One thing i noticed that was restrictive is the Em8er emoji's and some others available for paid discord user.

Other than that i cannot say how restrictive things are and if they are why would that be?

All that aside, my primary complaint is that there is a standing policy that top backers cannot be on that team. This policy is unfair because it was not disclosed so we could make an informed decision when deciding to become max tiers, and especially because it is not uniformly enforced.
I did not know of this, would of thought anyone could who was
- Helpful
- Trustworthy
- Supportive
- Reliable
- Have the right Skills / Qualifications
- Likes poop emoji's? (Optional)

I'm going to split the discord and just get on with my life.
I have the solution live in the Em8er forums :)
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#6
I think the first thing I should do is be honest about the situation. I've got an EGO problem. For a while it was fine, because I genuinely do feel rewarded just doing what I can without expecting anything in return. But when the link rule was put in, it made it difficult for me to help people. I had to work harder to provide the same info others can just link to directly. And even when I tried to engage new members despite this handicap, I did get a dm asking me not to. This left me being essentially useless outside of chief chats, and those became quite sparse around the same time.

As I said, being honest here, that was the point I began resenting the community team as it exists today. They get to be helpful and have fun(read "GIFS") on the discord, and I just kinda got to sit there and hope Mark had a chief chat so I could not be worthless for at least an hour.

But try as I might, I couldn't get out from under the restrictions. And in the process of offering feedback against them in the hopes they might change, people began to view me differently. My reputation has suffered a lot as of late, and I can't say I blame anyone for having a worse opinion of me than they did last year.

At some point I did go to Mark, and I did make a request. A litmus test if I could get some special treatment of my own. Like I said, EGO problem. Request denied. What was on offer instead was actually pretty amazing, but would not qualify as special treatment. I recognize how awful that last part is. If I regret one thing most of all, making that request is it. In that moment I stopped caring about Ember and the community and started caring about my own selfish interests.
 

Pandagnome

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#7
I think the first thing I should do is be honest about the situation. I've got an EGO problem. For a while it was fine, because I genuinely do feel rewarded just doing what I can without expecting anything in return. But when the link rule was put in, it made it difficult for me to help people. I had to work harder to provide the same info others can just link to directly. And even when I tried to engage new members despite this handicap, I did get a dm asking me not to. This left me being essentially useless outside of chief chats, and those became quite sparse around the same time.
One good thing to do is find something you enjoy doing for my example riding my mountain bike is one thing i look forward too. Can travel around, go to nature reserves and even find a spot to just catch up with buddies over a picnic and even clears my mind of the day/week etc.

Another is basketball, sometime ago i lost 4 games in row in basketball, and was not thinking of the other tactics we could of used against the other team. As annoyed as i was, got some feedback and went back to basics then planned ahead. We won 3 our of 4 games the next time so that certainly cheered me up :D

As I said, being honest here, that was the point I began resenting the community team as it exists today. They get to be helpful and have fun(read "GIFS") on the discord, and I just kinda got to sit there and hope Mark had a chief chat so I could not be worthless for at least an hour.
Discord is a weird place but those emoji's are nice i have to admit!
I think many are being supportive of the community just for turning up and doing their bit. Think we all are helpful in different ways and it adds up!

One thing i learned in sports is even playing a small part towards something helps as an example fans in sports are a big part for morale and confidence. One thing i have always found intriguing is the mascots in sports team i'd always wonder how fun it would be running around in those outfits and seeing the team and doing a stuipid dance what a fun job :D

My reputation has suffered a lot as of late, and I can't say I blame anyone for having a worse opinion of me than they did last year.
My take on this is your not a bad person you just got to channel your focus on other things too and most important think of your well being.

It's an Em8er community/family thing
 
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Ronyn

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#8
Differences of opinion are bound to happen. No one is perfect, no two people agree on everything.
I have my reasons for every choice I make, just as I have to obey the rules/limitation set on me, just as there are many things I know that I am not allowed to speak about.
None of that is not say I am always right. No one is.
So I won't go into any of these basic disagreements in policy here, a least not in this post.
However accuracy is important so let us keep things straight.

But when the link rule was put in,
There is some confusion here.
Gifs, Images, and links have not been allowed in Main lobby since August of 2016. (btw at the time we had about 800 members in the discord. My how we have grown!)
That is when the Main Lobby media channel was created. It's why it exists. So people can post links, images, and gifs!

It's worth noting that gifs and images are literally impossible to place in main lobby, technically links often can be, leading to a mod telling that person to move them. Though it may happen that someone will post links for a while before anyone notices. So if there was any change at all to this situation it would be going from a message of "no links in main lobby please" to just links being impossible to even post. Same rule, as they have never actually been allowed.

Another example of a possible perceived change that is actually just a misunderstanding: At one point in discords lifecycle, there was an update from discord where nitro users or boosters were suddenly given a purple name by default. This was visible in Em-8er discord for only a few months before that setting was set to off, and they were back to the regular grey they had been previously.

Another example: Some years back I reshuffled all of the colors for the devs and community team. No new roles were created or taken away. Just some color swaps. From the outside someone may have thought something else was going on but it was all just aesthetic.

As I stated before, very few changes have been made to the Discord since the beginning.
As there is more "game-to-play", more in-game features come online, many rules will fall off and new ones may have to be created.
I don't have a crystal ball to tell the future of Em-8er but I do know quite a bit about the past.
I've been here all along.
 

Sy

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Nov 16, 2018
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#10
First, my perspective.
...
I saw the comments on Discord. I'm glad you took it to the forum, because I wanted to respond there but was pretty sure I'd be DMed to "not add to drama" or whatever. (Because that's what I'd do when moderating my own servers.)

I read and re-read your posts try to understand the perspective. I am confused because I don't think I see quite the same problems as you, so I think I picked out some key ideas: every voice matters, perks, power, regime, special treatment, fun (gifs)

Firstly, whenever someone talks about wanting to be heard, I wonder if they're looking to get their own people or perspectives installed as a fifth column so they can shit the place up. This notion is scarred into my psyche by repeated experience, so bear that grumpy old man mentality in mind and don't take things personally.

-

There are all kinds of problems surrounding a person's opinion, being selfish, being ignorant, being eloquent, communicating at the right opportunity, etc. For example, many people aren't "heard" because they don't know how/when/etc to talk; it's tragic. It also falls on the devs do not just listen to the community but understand the silent player base and market. What stings my entitlement, but I have to agree with, is that development decisions are handed down from on high undemocratically and nobody is given credit.

What I've always assumed is that there are silent transcriptions of everything we chat about so no idea is lost and they are logged in a secret developer ticket tracker to prioritize and discuss them. I'd also have regular summaries of those (uncredited) ideas to tell the community they are being heard. That's what I'd do, but I'm a technical support, documentation, QA, and project manager type. What really hurts my feelings is when I have something really interesting or useful to say but it was typed at the wrong time and I can't tell if it's been read or not, dismissed or not, or written down or not. So maybe this is part of a "powerlessness" perspective. However, power is a stupid word to use.

You are right about perks and fun. I'd bet the devs can't understand concepts like a colored name, or links/gifs being a perk, and that they only see them as permissions settings in the context of security/moderation. The context and community of Discord is different than elsewhere, and the devs appear to have a generation gap. General chat does seem wrong when it limits aspects of the culture of Discord. I intuit that there is a boomer problem on Discord that's made things sterile and chilled.

Regime is a stupid word to use; stop. It iS a PriVaTe CompAnY it CaN dO whAt It WanTs. The community has had ideas and complaints, has been an inspiration and an exasperation, but ultimately everything falls in the hands of the devs and not a democracy. Of course decisions should be private, dictatorial and without justification.
 

Pandagnome

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#11
there is a boomer problem on Discord that's made things sterile and chilled.
Could depend on the attitudes and values of individuals not just a generational issue.

Also the forum is grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat!
Team forum.jpg

It iS a PriVaTe CompAnY it CaN dO whAt It WanTs. The community has had ideas and complaints, has been an inspiration and an exasperation, but ultimately everything falls in the hands of the devs and not a democracy. Of course decisions should be private, dictatorial and without justification.
I don't think all decisions should be all private sometimes some transparency goes a long way with trust.
There are times when things need to be private depending on the circumstance i will agree.

I wonder how many good feed backs Em8er has had compared to complaints for each year since the start?
 
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Ronyn

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#12
Oh Sy
I have always stated that my choices are based largely on the relatively unique situation of having a community this size for a game this early in dev. The "eyes on" to "game to show" ratio is quite uncommon outside of sequels.
It could be that we would simply approach this same situation differently. maybe better, maybe worse. Hard to say unless you're also in it though right? At any rate I don't mind that some folks disagree with some of the processes, that is totally fine. However...

You are right about perks and fun. I'd bet the devs can't understand concepts like a colored name, or links/gifs being a perk, and that they only see them as permissions settings in the context of security/moderation. The context and community of Discord is different than elsewhere, and the devs appear to have a generation gap. General chat does seem wrong when it limits aspects of the culture of Discord. I intuit that there is a boomer problem on Discord that's made things sterile and chilled.
If I'm following this properly, your opinion is that I'm too old to know how to build/run a discord because I just can't understand the culture? That's an interesting take.
Welp, considering the scope and impact of my day job (not em-8er) gives me on this type of thing, we had better hope that is not the case. lol
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#13
For what it's worth, the amount of discontent my posts as of late have generated is not something I'm happy with at all.

I do have to respond to one thing though, I DO NOT at any point want anyone to feel like my intent was to enforce any one person's views on the process, including my own. My aims are entirely the opposite of that.

I'm aware how it might appear to be otherwise, and much of that is my fault. I would love for people to give their honest feedback, and if it disagrees with my own, so much the better.
 
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Apr 23, 2017
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#14
Perhaps this is not a bad thing it is a target, and having a target we can all see that and that should hopefully reinforce and encourage the team to work towards that better.

With any targets sometimes they can finish well in advance, and other times may need to be extended due to alterations, testing or even other non work related reasons etc.

I do appreciate how honest we are and looking at it carefully. We could also consider those possibilities and whats to say also the possibilities of good outcome that success is to happen too?

Maybe i am too optimistic, but if we do not stay positive I fear the flaws would be more highlighted in contrast to the good things.

So i know our eyes are on this, lets all do what we can and help continue building on what we have!
I'm trying to keep a positive outlook, though it's difficult lately and for reasons that have little to do with the development itself. It involves what I said about taking care of the members we already have. I am clearly not doing well at all after an incident nearly 6 months ago, but the powers that be aren't keen on helping.
 

Pandagnome

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#15
I'm trying to keep a positive outlook, though it's difficult lately and for reasons that have little to do with the development itself. It involves what I said about taking care of the members we already have. I am clearly not doing well at all after an incident nearly 6 months ago, but the powers that be aren't keen on helping.
From what i have noticed you have helped push towards the changes such as we get to have colour tags for our support/effort now.

This could be a process to implement additional features as time goes on i am guessing hmm

What else could be done to help care for our loyal members and support its retention?
I am sad to hear you are not happy after the incident, just keep persistent is what i'd say!


Think i posted this before, and what if members could earn awards such as:

award.jpg
That way recognition is shown with awards and enough awards can lead to obtainable things in the Em8er website such as official Em8er forum Kawaii portrait etc etc

After reaching an award rank of 100 Epic / Ultra you can be automatically placed for Em8er team consideration. This could lead to trust/respect given to the member and may be voluntary at first then who knows become a paid position if budgets and space are available in the long term.

I'd imagine this could be a great way to develop its team internally with community talent and also those outside of the community. While having a reason to be more productive and engaged in what is going on.

Question is would that be difficult to add?
 
Apr 23, 2017
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#16
From what i have noticed you have helped push towards the changes such as we get to have colour tags for our support/effort now.
I've been advocating in several phases. Phase 1 was simply removing the restrictions on Mainlobby outside of chief chat. Community members could then answer questions about the game or carry on a normal conversation without jumping through hoops to do it.

Over time it didn't seem likely that would happen, so phase 2(backer roles) was an attempt to somewhat level things out so that at least SOME other members could do the above. Not my preferred solution, but better than nothing.

That doesn't seem likely to happen soon enough to matter. I suppose phase 3 is advocating against the same restrictions from becoming a thing in the game itself, or people getting jobs because they were *allowed* to be useful.

What do I mean by that? Well, what do you suppose happens if I make my own copy pastas, and send them to new members who join? I will be politely told to not do it. Fai's got this is the phrase. If I refused, eventually I'd end up muted or banned.

I know this because when we try to engage skeptical people already being engaged by the community team, Ronyn steps in. That would be where "Fai's got this" came from as a phrase. I'd screenshot that but I'm not on the discord.
 
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Feb 14, 2021
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#18
I'll be continuing this discussion on reddit. That will be the last time I am modded by Crixa without cause.
cool it giga, you didn't get modded or your post didn't get deleted, your post got moved to the right thread. your causing unneeded drama, this has happened to many different people, this is normal. have you never been on a forum before
 

Ronyn

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#19
Let's all be kind to each other guys.

Keeping threads on topic by moving posts to more appropriate threads is standard practice in most forums.
 

Pandagnome

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#20
been advocating in several phases. Phase 1 was simply removing the restrictions on Mainlobby outside of chief chat. Community members could then answer questions about the game or carry on a normal conversation without jumping through hoops to do it.

Just thinking having 2 mainlobbies what if they just have the mainlobby (media) as the only mainlobby. The mainlobby non media could be renamed to something such as Main Reception so that its easier to distinguish.

That way reception is more the quieter less blast of information and the main lobby is the more active.

phase 3 is advocating against the same restrictions from becoming a thing in the game itself, or people getting jobs because they were *allowed* to be useful.

What do I mean by that? Well, what do you suppose happens if I make my own copy pastas, and send them to new members who join? I will be politely told to not do it.
If it's good information about the game i do not understand why it is an issue?

I hope there is no favoritism, hmm its a methodical way to chose who is right for the task right?
Well in one case at work they got a deputy who never really experienced our venue.

Cut a long story short the inspection didn't go to plan and if they only trusted my other colleague things would of gone smoother since my colleague and others knew how things worked clearly.
Anyway that was something made clear, perhaps next time trust will be given to them rather than someone who has a different way of doing things.

The deputy is more result orientated whilst the colleague was more people person which did also result in good things even though results was not as organized compared to how the deputy did things.
 
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