What happen when you lose?

Omnires

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2016
379
500
63
#1
This thread is about what happens when we, ether solo or as a collective whole, fail in a mission or get taken out of the fight. Because I'm one of those people who thinks that losing in a game should still be kind of fun and give you something to think about so you can do better next time.

For example, what happens to a player when they killed in a fight while in a missions or in side an enemy base? In some games you don't just respawn in the nearest or last safe zone, but other things happen. Like you become something like a ghost and have to look for your body again if you want to respawn in that area again. Or the enemy captures you and puts you in jail, where you have 3 options wait out your jail time, or try to escape from jail with the risk of adding more time if you fail, or hope one of your friends or faction mates can break you out of jail. It is things like this that adds bit of stress to the game because you have be mindful of where you die and makes the option of running away from a fight seem less like a coward move and more of tactical one and where you die and how you die matters.

What happens when you lose an outpost or base? Is everything just destroyed or captured resetting? Or are players given an ever closing window to do last resort measures that make the counterattack easier or harder? For example, the base is lost so command tells everyone to leave the area before it is to late. But there are some things that need to be done first like destroying anything the might be able to use against you later, like auto turrets and any supplies you can't take with you. It might be a good idea to back up all the files on the main computers to your mecha while also erasing or destroying the computers. The more things you can take out of the base or destroy before the enemy totally takes over the area the better because it'll make the counterattack a lot easier and aid in making it happen faster.

There are many routs we can go in a game like this that would still let people have fun even if they are losing or lost. And many tactics that can be added to the game if done right.

For example in one game I use to play a few days before a faction war some of us came up with a plain we would attack the enemy area and do a much damage to their food crops as much as possible and put up a good fight when they come to stop us, but in the end we'll let them win so we get put into their jail. And then time our escape from the jail to happen at the same time as they faction war starts. That way those of us was captured can fight them inside the city walls and try to open the gates while rest of faction is fighting them from outside. This unit was like a spec-ops unit as each of us had to be skilled enough players to fight an win without the use of weapons and armor while also knowing how lure the enemy into traps/ambushes until gates can be opened or destroyed. So we toke a smaller lost at a chance for a greater victory. And even if we didn't win it was fun just trying.

The thing that reminded me of this topic is this. As is one of the things I always think about when playing games, in that a game should be fun no matter if you are winning or losing.
 

Gordro

Omniframe Inventor
Jul 26, 2016
85
166
33
England
#2
If you lose, it should result in permadeath for that character. PvE should never be a simple "next next next" exercise.

Fear of having to reroll a character after 7 months of intensive play involving 2 new jobs, a divorce and never seeing your daughter again would make the game play more "intense"

Anything less and the game isn't trying hard enough,

At the very minimum a loss in PvP should allow the winner to loot your corpse.

Maybe respawns in PvP could be stomached if there was a "tea bag" emote for the winner to use?
 
Likes: Rocket

Gordro

Omniframe Inventor
Jul 26, 2016
85
166
33
England
#3
a game should be fun no matter if you are winning or losing.
Games are not about fun.

They are about demonstrating your power over the weaker players you meet and destroying them. "Enjoyment" is gained from the knowledge that somewhere in the world, some 12 year old kid is crying himself to sleep because you burned his dream and turned his online experience to ash.

To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women! That should be the aim of a computer game.......
 

Pandagnome

Kaiju Slayer
Happy Kaiju
Jul 27, 2016
3,134
3,091
113
Island of Tofu
mechadrive.com
#6
In some games you don't just respawn in the nearest or last safe zone, but other things happen. Like you become something like a ghost and have to look for your body again if you want to respawn in that area again. Or the enemy captures you and puts you in jail, where you have 3 options wait out your jail time, or try to escape from jail with the risk of adding more time if you fail, or hope one of your friends or faction mates can break you out of jail. It is things like this that adds bit of stress to the game because you have be mindful of where you die and makes the option of running away from a fight seem less like a coward move and more of tactical one and where you die and how you die matters.
The ides to have a sort of out of body experience could give you a view the other players do not but its for a short time until you re-spawn. This could help with letting the other players in your team know what is happening out of their field of vision. Would that be worth doing for those at the point of almost dieing too?


For example, the base is lost so command tells everyone to leave the area before it is to late. But there are some things that need to be done first like destroying anything the might be able to use against you later, like auto turrets and any supplies you can't take with you. It might be a good idea to back up all the files on the main computers to your mecha while also erasing or destroying the computers.
When the enemy captures the base they meld their tech with ours making it more tougher however whose to say we cannot attempt to reclaim it back!
Definitely like the idea of backing up the the plans on the mech computers some computers would have limited memory and could have a higher capacity mod if researched to help out with these situations or get vital maps that have priority points of value.


There are many routs we can go in a game like this that would still let people have fun even if they are losing or lost. And many tactics that can be added to the game if done right.
From the tactics point of view this could be abused unless there is a limit it can be done say it resets each couple of hours that you can do this 7 times every couple of hours or something hmm.



The thing that reminded me of this topic is this. As is one of the things I always think about when playing games, in that a game should be fun no matter if you are winning or losing.
yes but winning still gives a good feeling :D

Good feels:
- winning
- Saving lives
- Catapulting an enemy into space
- big explosions or implosions
- friends
-loots/rewards
- tiki torch dance
- building wonderful buildings!
- admiring the drop ship/mech
- mech team karaoke night ...ear plugs advised o.o

Bad feels:
- Death
- Trolls
- losing construction and rewards, mechs etc
- Crashing
- Angry people
- wi fi issues
- Interrupted game due to phone calls or such rl issues!
- respawning and living for a brief moment and dieing immediately ..... :O


There has to be a loss of some kind affecting the player or clan personally. Otherwise winning slowly loses meaning the more the player experiences it.
That makes sense, otherwise it just becomes too easy or boring what if some of the death say you death results in one of the npc getting captured because you could not protect their house. Or what if your death resulted in low medical supplies as you were the only transportation to get these!
The death of you not only impacts yourself but perhaps the npc that are nearby or you decided to help!


It made me think what if we had randomized death that we could not predict
e.g. such as the idea one death might mean you are captured another could be you are lucky enough
for an npc to revive you only to know they are bandits and have stolen some of your gear etc etc

The risks of death will be there its just we wont be able to predict it as easily so you might be lucky to respawn at the nearest outpost/barracks or you might lose abit and be turned into a half kaiju but must revert yourself back at the lab otherwise you turn into a kaiju and others will attack you :O
 
Likes: Omnires

Pandagnome

Kaiju Slayer
Happy Kaiju
Jul 27, 2016
3,134
3,091
113
Island of Tofu
mechadrive.com
#7
They are about demonstrating your power over the weaker players you meet and destroying them. "Enjoyment" is gained from the knowledge that somewhere in the world, some 12 year old kid is crying himself to sleep because you burned his dream and turned his online experience to ash.
That reminded me of bowser and donkey kong punks i was toad so they used to do their grunt thing and push me off the track what jerks. Then oneday i got a feather and jumped over them that was a good day!

Maybe respawns in PvP could be stomached if there was a "tea bag" emote for the winner to use?
Lets add it to the next lvl a kaiju cat 6 tea bagging :O
 
Likes: Gordro

Wyntyr

Firstclaimer
Jul 26, 2016
1,551
3,185
113
Florida
#8
Hmmmm...okay...

1. Reaper is rekt...other Reapers can "revive" you but the animation is of repairing the OF...then the rekt Reaper can now get back into the fight with some other possible issues going on...low health/armor/screens/slight damage to gear/etc.

2. Reaper is rekt but either doesn't want to wait for "revive" or no other Reaper shows up to "revive" so they ditch their OF and run around Em.8ER in geesuit with personal weapon until their next OF (different OF or a slightly repaired version of the previous OF) is delivered via dropship.

3. See #2 but Reaper outside of OF is squished like grape. Respawn at nearest base with option for different OF delivery or use of slightly repaired version of previous OF.
 
Last edited:

Markolis

Terraformer
Aug 5, 2017
14
32
13
UK
#9
Interesting ideas...I play an mmo where death/losing is all part of the Experience - it can be tough but 'we' all know that. The last thing I'd want to experience in any rpg/mmo type game is 'RL' - who wants that? Sooo, having a game mechanic that penalises a death in a given situation...be it a solo or grp/team/open driven event, should'nt affect the whole instance - like in 'RL'.

I have liked the ideas from other existing mmo's about death of a player: -
* player death involves a respawn to a point outside of event (done on auto or must choose from a device in a mech, on a countdown) and player can be revived by a special player/npc - BUT, there are limited resources. That player also has a time delay before being 'up and working' again and getting another Mech is dependant on these resources - makes for tough decissions by team leaders, based on their tactics.
Planning for death and that scenario is easier to swallow for players who want to be kept 'active' but possibly 'inactive' for a time period -if this seems like a cope out, then think about some aspects of 'RL' war - less combatants/resources/time can affect a whole section of the 'Grand plan' ...contingencies of regrouping, resupply etc. comes into big effect!!
Winning is Key to the whole success, BUT should not be relied upon as the single goal - 'Retreating when the situation calls for it, can be the best outcome to future success'
If I have been to 'obvious' or repeated others ideas...then copying can be a form of flattery !! ;):cool:
 

liandri

Omni Ace
Omni Ace
Jul 29, 2016
58
109
33
23
Sydney, Australia
www.youtube.com
#10
When it comes to character death, I do love when the game has a vaiid, lore-acceptable reason for you to continue play. Death in WoW made sense within the game, as does being incapacitated in Shadowrun.

With the Tsi-hu, but more relevant to the Kaiju, you'll likely being cut to ribbons in you faced then without your Omniframe. As such:

On Omniframe destruction: Eject the player with a personal defence weapon and call for new Omniframe drop.
Prior to Player Death outside Omniframe:
When operator health is reduced to zero, emergency hardlight shield generates around player from their geesuit, pushing back attackers and deflecting projectiles, and teleports the character to the nearest medical station. Player can then heal, and return to combat.
On Death: In the likely event where player is killed PRIOR to ejecting from Omniframe (such as being crushed by larger kaiju or due to extreme environmental damage), see above without the need to heal.
 

Omnires

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2016
379
500
63
#11
On the idea of pilots getting out of their frames when they are destroyed. What if it was possible for them jump to and ride on the omniframes of other players? This why if another player is near by they have the option of letting the other player pick them up and carry them to safe place out of the way until a new frame can drop in for them. You can carry them on in your arms or let them ride on your back/shoulders. Personally I favor the idea of them riding on my shoulders because it still frees my hands up for doing other things, plus they can also do things like watch my back and take pop shots at the enemy with their personal weapon. And allow for the omniframes to carry more than one person as long as they don't go over the mass limit of the frame. Meaning that players who don't like to push the weight capacity of their frames could carry for more people than say a person who is in a tank frame with heavy armor and weapons pushing near the limits of the weight capacity of the frame.

I also like the idea of team mates helping you to try and do field repairs on your frame but the repairs is never 100%. As some parts might be too damaged or knocked out of alignment so your need to take a closer look at to fix them but can't really do that in the middle of battle. So they just do like patch work repairs and jury rig things to get you up and running but that is it. And each time you are downed and picked back up the things that need to be repaired just compound. So your choices are to leave the battle and fix a safe place to do proper repairs or to keep trying to push on until your frame is just so broken that no amount of patch work can get it moving again.

On the idea of counterattacks and trying to take over bases. I like the idea of trying to take over the enemies' technology and using it against them. Because I like to play as stealth, it would give me so much joy to be able to get into an enemy base and turn their own systems against them. Like changing the targeting data their auto guns fire on them while ignoring humans and putting base on lock down to keep them trapped in places behind things like shields and blast doors. Making it easier for the main attack force to come into base and take it back.
 

Pandagnome

Kaiju Slayer
Happy Kaiju
Jul 27, 2016
3,134
3,091
113
Island of Tofu
mechadrive.com
#12
On the idea of pilots getting out of their frames when they are destroyed. What if it was possible for them jump to and ride on the omniframes of other players? This why if another player is near by they have the option of letting the other player pick them up and carry them to safe place out of the way until a new frame can drop in for them. You can carry them on in your arms or let them ride on your back/shoulders. Personally I favor the idea of them riding on my shoulders because it still frees my hands up for doing other things, plus they can also do things like watch my back and take pop shots at the enemy with their personal weapon. And allow for the omniframes to carry more than one person as long as they don't go over the mass limit of the frame. Meaning that players who don't like to push the weight capacity of their frames could carry for more people than say a person who is in a tank frame with heavy armor and weapons pushing near the limits of the weight capacity of the frame.
This idea yes i like it!!!!

I also like the idea of team mates helping you to try and do field repairs on your frame but the repairs is never 100%.
Would certainly buy some time!
 

Rocket

Max Kahuna
Max Kahina
Jul 26, 2016
193
309
63
Australia
#13
At the very minimum a loss in PvP should allow the winner to loot your corpse.

Maybe respawns in PvP could be stomached if there was a "tea bag" emote for the winner to use?
There's no PVP here. It's PVE.

And those that can't handle dying in PVE can go find a SJW Community safe space over there in the corner of the safest base or orbiting space ship on/above EM-8er. Everyone else can just play on.

Yes. There needs to be consequence for death. Especially for poor performers, aka "those that die a little too often". Just as long as it's not ping based deaths, since without equalization, it's not really a game of skill.
 
Likes: Mahdi

Gordro

Omniframe Inventor
Jul 26, 2016
85
166
33
England
#14
You may think there is no PvP BUT the ability to stomp all over those currently marked as "your mates" in PvE is actually the truest form of PvP.

They are players, they can't call you a n00b in chat because they are "your friends" BUT they CAN form a deep seated resentment of your awesome abilities as you fly past them in both abilities and "shinies"

Remember, your friends are only people who have not yet slept with the wife while you are away working to pay the mortgage......
 

Omnires

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2016
379
500
63
#15
What about things like stealth missions? You can totally still clear the mission without using stealth if you want. But doing will change the outcome of things in your next set of missions that are linked to it.

If you clear the stealth mission without being found out or setting off alarms you reward is going to be great and you'll have access to different routs in the next mission. To try can take or destroy something from the enemy like a prototype weapon they are working on. You have the option to take it so you can use it on them later and keep a permanent version of it after the mission is over when hand it over to the R&D people and they make a copy of it for you while they research the original.

But if you clear the mission without using stealth or even fail the mission the next mission in the chain is going to change a bit. For one the enemies are going to be on high alert and you'll have less rout options as those places are blocked out or destroyed. Not only will there be more enemies inside the base but sense they know who you are now there is a death squad in the based designed counter your build, forcing you play in a different way when you run across them (Example: you like to use a lot of AOEs, so the members of the death squad will have on bomb resistant armor and shields to lessen the damage you can do to them with AOEs or they might even have special force fields that can reflect some of the AOE damage back to you so you end up hurting yourself in the attacks.). And in the last part of the mission is of you having to face off against an enemy using the thing you are trying to steal / destroy. You still have the option to recover the item, like a weapon, but it is damaged / broken. So if you want a permanent version of it you have find and/or make replacement parts for it. It also means you know have to randomly deal with death squads that are designed to fight you, as opposed to just generalized death squads.

I know something like this would be a bit of extra work. But I have seen a few game so something like this. Where there are different outcomes to missions/quests based on the things they did in them that also effected them long after that mission or event was over as it is now flagged as part of their character data. This also means that later on when you help you friends with a mission that mission can change just based on who the team leader is and what things are flagged on them. Example, in one game I played because of the things I did in a quest there is an NPC who sometimes helps me with things, but when I team up with other players there is a different NPC who helps them, if there is even one at all. All because each of us made difference choices in the some quest lines there is a chance that the instance mission or dungeon might change to reflect what the team leader did.
 

Gordro

Omniframe Inventor
Jul 26, 2016
85
166
33
England
#16
What about things like stealth missions?
Or speed missions?

THe first release of anarchy online had many speed bugs, so you could recast multiple versions of speed buffs on you, increasing your speed a % of the total each time.

Running missions 100 levels greater than you was child's play.

Broke servers though so they fixed it :p
 
Likes: Omnires

Omnires

Well-Known Member
Aug 14, 2016
379
500
63
#18
Or speed missions?

THe first release of anarchy online had many speed bugs, so you could recast multiple versions of speed buffs on you, increasing your speed a % of the total each time.

Running missions 100 levels greater than you was child's play.

Broke servers though so they fixed it :p
Shh... We don't talk about the Adventurers and Fixers who could run faster than the flying cars, making buying vehicles pointless. lol, I remember how I could run and fly to places faster than people could fly to in their cars or even teleport to with a Fixer while I was using my Adventurer because my run stat was maxed out. And if I was using my Fixer with Grid Armor I only used my teleport abilities when I was feeling lazy because all my speed stats was maxed out. In that game I had a habit saying things like "Beep beep!" and "Zoooooom!" when I ran or fly past people. I remember giving someone a 15 min head start in a race once, it with my Adventurer I turned into a bird and said "Sonic Boom!" as I flew past him in his flying car, which only toke me 2 mins to catch up to him, then I wait for 35 mins on the other side of the world for him to get to finish line.

Anyway, back on topic. We could have speed missions where we have to try and chase down a fast moving enemy or have to get from point A to point B before time runs out.

Example. You failed the stealth mission and now the boss of the area knows what you are looking for. So the next mission in the chain is to chase him down or bet him to the location of the hidden base on a remote island. Be boss puts the base on high alert so even if we bet him there fighting the enemies will slow us down. We make our way deep underground and find the core of the base. Because you didn't bet you the boss to place the secret was being held by the time we get to him rather than letting us take over the base and finding out their secrets he sets the base to self destruct. So now not only do we have to kill or capture the boss, but we also have to find our way back out of the base and off the island before the whole thing blows up. All the while things falling apart and burning all around us. Win, lose, or run away the fight the island is going to blow up, like a chain reaction in a volcano, so it is only a matter of how fast can you get off the island before that happens. And just to be a jerk the boss sets the base to go into lock-down mode so things like blast doors and stuff are going to be closing on you.
 
Last edited:

Gordro

Omniframe Inventor
Jul 26, 2016
85
166
33
England
#19
I hope the game itself is speed mission upon speed mission...lol.
There is a reason I played recluse almost exclusively in Firefall :)


And it wasn't only that all other classes were idiots who couldn't tie their own shoelaces unless a recluse was there to hold their hand......
 
Likes: Wyntyr