Thoughts on Turret-based items and Healers?

NightStroke

Base Commander
Base Commander
Jul 26, 2016
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#1
I just want to know if you guys think they fit into Ember. In my opinion, turret-based classes are really difficult to balance between under and overpowered, and healers often get overpowered to account for solo play. What should the diversity of "classes" look like to you(I know the game will have a single omniframe, but there are still "styles" for items)?
 

NitroMidgets

Tsi-Hu Hunter
Jul 27, 2016
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Dupont, WA
#2
The turrets early on in that other game weren't over powered. You couldn't simply deploy them and then go AFK while your Thumper collected resources for you. They did some damage but mostly just drew the aggro. The healer early on wasn't bad either but then they needed to balance for PVP and then things just started to spiral on them.

I'll wait for more details on this game before saying either way.
 

NitroMidgets

Tsi-Hu Hunter
Jul 27, 2016
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Dupont, WA
#4
The reset time to deploy them, the damage they do, rate of fire, the detection range of the turrets and so on could have all been adjusted or can in the future. Make it a matter of preference but everything should have a trade off.

The old Medics had the TF lock on beam which some complained about in regards to PVP as well as the vampire beam which them meant we needed the new variations which to be honest, would have been a nice addition to but not a replacement for.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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#6
Turrets imo need to built in a few ways..

A: A 360 degree range of fire turret needs to be weaker considering it has no means to be exploited. Lower turn speeds, rates of fire, damage, accuracy are ways to create a counter. - This is the most lazy and unpredictable imo.

B: Turrets woth limited arcs of fire. Between 180 and lower. These have obvious areas to exploit to take them down and also require some degree of planning in placement allowing some sense of strategy. These can be very powerful but most powerful with smart placement and a good player. Good players can counter it and it makes the owner of the turret need to use their skills to defend their deployable.

C: Rapid multiple deployments. Typically weak and fragile but can be available frequently and in mass number be effective. Variable on arc of fire but 360 is probably best since each individual turret has to accumulate to the same power of a single larger turret. Draw back is that each turret must then be 1/3 that of a single and each is weaker and mlre fragile and harder to maintain.

We saw MT's be overwheling with mass numbers and pathetic in the end during FF. Global Agenda by far still pulled off the BEST turret and deployable based class I have played to date in a futuristic shooter.

I am in favor of B with a small selection of turret types best suited for different tasks.
 

Bl4ckhunter

Active Member
Jul 26, 2016
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#8
honestly i'm not sold on dedicated healers, you add them and either they become a requirement for 99% of the content or they're completely useless, i definitely don't want to see again a swarm of 3+ medics rotating around an heavy like in Global agenda/ TF2, that's just broken, i wouldn't say no to a few healing items if they go the modular approach so if a player wants to play medic it's up to them but no to holy trinity pure medics, a class with the sole purpose of keeping the others immortal shouldnt exist.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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#9
A good setup that wouldn't require dedicated healers would instead require that all players have access to a self heal that would keep them in the fight. This would have to be restricted by a long cooldown but unlimited use heal or a limited use heal that could be refreshed by pickups in the field.

This would be best supplimented by a No Class system so that a 'Support' section of abilites could be set aside for extra healing for when you're on CD or out of healing charges.

The Division did a wonderful job making the game classless but you still could play a healer/support role to keep the team up or try and go without and instead each player was responsible for themselves.
 
Likes: Bl4ckhunter

LunaCee

Lieutenant
Jul 26, 2016
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West coast, USA
#11
There was absolutely nothing wrong with Heal Wave and Pillar.

Heal wave required the Bio to hit an ally to get a heal for themself, and was most used for knockback to keep stuff off objectives or deployable assets. Pillar had an arming time of a couple seconds and required thought on placement to avoid getting blown up before it triggered.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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#12
Let's never speak of The Division again, or Ubisoft. Even mentioning either in a thread has the potential to invalidate any previously valid point a person might have.
Yet here we are picking up pieces of Firefall from Red5 to make Ember?

You can't ignore some good that came out of bad games.
 

NitroMidgets

Tsi-Hu Hunter
Jul 27, 2016
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Dupont, WA
#13
Yet here we are picking up pieces of Firefall from Red5 to make Ember?
The Division can be saved, just not by Massive or Ubisoft.
My opinions of what they were doing to Firefall at Red5 were public for a bit until they were all deleted. Both games could have been much better. Red5 only had one game and stumbled so badly they will be no more. Ubisoft has put out broken game after broken game for years now. That is why Vivendi has something like 23% of the company already as well as drove them from Gameloft.
Good concepts, alphas and betas can be saved. Look at how Warframe came back as the game they intended it to be years later and has succeeded.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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#14
The Division can be saved, just not by Massive or Ubisoft.
My opinions of what they were doing to Firefall at Red5 were public for a bit until they were all deleted. Both games could have been much better. Red5 only had one game and stumbled so badly they will be no more. Ubisoft has put out broken game after broken game for years now. That is why Vivendi has something like 23% of the company already as well as drove them from Gameloft.
Good concepts, alphas and betas can be saved. Look at how Warframe came back as the game they intended it to be years later and has succeeded.
Precisely. We are looking at the concepts. Execution can be taken now from experience.

I don't really see a reason to write off some of the mechanical workings and concepts entirely just because Ubisoft. :)

Example: Division... that turret sucked.
 

zezzame

Commander
Jul 27, 2016
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Australia
#15
I am going to advocate for healers. Or at least a support/buffing class with healing as an option.
I played as a healer in firefall for a long time. I was there for the healing lock on beam removal and I loved the class so much more.
When they removed heal ball in the last big FF update, I actually did a massive write up on heal ball, why I liked it and how it showed me what skill healing was in a shooter. I loved that ability, its removeal from firefall showed me how much the game changed and I left.
If all healing abilities were made with the skill/reward system that were healling ball's principles (along with other abilities in the old FF); I feel healers would be a great addition. Only the best would actually be more useful than the extra firepower one would provide being another class.

Side note: If someone wants to see the write up I did on heal ball, just ask. I don't want to paste a wall of text on a thread where it may be unwanted.
 

NitroMidgets

Tsi-Hu Hunter
Jul 27, 2016
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Dupont, WA
#16
I liked the version we played at the Red5 trip in 2010 and the Friends and Family playing before that. I even liked the Closed beta version of Firefall. That was the version Mark had talked about. That was the version I was signing on to play.

Oh and the Community Managers at Ubisoft are good people. They even tried to help me get my ban lifted after somebody hacked my email and Uplay account. Sadly even they could not get anything resolved. It took over a month before they finally even said sorry for the inconvenience, the ban has been lifted.
 
Jul 27, 2016
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#17
From my experience the Engineer filled the roll of resource collector better than everyone else. The turrets if placed well enough could avoid the rpg mechanics and the shooter mechanics while thumping. Basically just free damage, it made thumping less interactive or challenging.

Firefall needed some resources sinks badly and the opportunity to turn destructible turrets into one was too great. Everyone should be able craft and place turrets, while Engineers could fill a role of maintaining them. The whole thumping scene should be tuned around the risk of damaged equipment or even total destruction.

This game can't use tank, damage, healer like in traditional MMOs. However relying simply on twitch mechanics for PvE won't hold an audience. Interdependence is key for an MMO otherwise you'll just try to solo everything.

You can't have tanks, what would he do.. jump in front of bullets all day? No threat mechanics to protect damage dealers. Healers are pretty easy to introduce, but pure healers? Unlikely.

This game is going to have define roles to play while also shooting bad guys.

Our main tanks? Obviously a thumper (or some other machine.)

That means... we get two healers. Engineers and your Biotech archetype.

Engineers would heal the main tank, avoid getting shot, all while also getting to shoot at critters.

Biotechs would heal everyone (and shoot.)

There is also a third unexplored role in FireFall, some sort of hard crowd control.

Every class, frame, or role has to have a highly effective way to deal damage while also having the option of a secondary role. I'd say having no pure damage role, that way each frame gets an interesting set of options if they focus on damage.
 
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TankHunter678

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2016
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#18
I want turrets that are fully customizable.

3 types of bases, a multitude of equip-able weapon systems.

Small base: Flimsy, can be launched to attach to walls/ceilings, limited to light weaponry only.
Medium base: Default turret base, moderate durability, can be placed on the ground, can use light, medium and limited heavy weapons.
Heavy base: Large, durable, player manned. Utilizes the heaviest of weaponry available for use.

Weaponry/equipment could include...

Machine guns
Burst Rifles
Liquid sprayers (allows for elemental damage)
Tesla generators
Seismic generators
Anti-Tank guns
Burst Cannons
Missile Launchers (Multi/Single, Streak(Tracking)/Dumb, small/medium/large)
Beam Weaponry
Railguns
Shield Emitter
Healing Field
Ammo Generator

Could also on later upgrades of say vehicles or the T.H.U.M.P.R. put in hardpoints for deploying this equipment on them. Could have a mech that helps defend itself or has a shield to help limit the damage it takes.