Suggestion for Skills (also tied to crafting)

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punkbuzter#6186

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#1
(almost) Infinite modularity... How does that sound? Impossible?
Let me introduce a mixture of Hellgate London, Path of Exile, and the Tinker's Construct mod for Minecraft...

Tinker's Construct:
Mix-matching materials can result in various effects, and depending on effects, players can adapt their craft after build. Let's play with our mind for a bit, we take Steel and Cobalt where Cobalt is an exotic material (harder to thump) and crafting a weapon with said materials makes the weapon lightweight, and reduces cooldown by a couple percent. Tho, since Cobalt in this case would count as an exotic material it could give a bonus like a Tech-Mod slot.

Path of Exile and Hellgate London:
Tech-Mod slots can be expanded with more rare materials, more rare materials gives other/better stats depending on the mixture. Let's say you craft a weapon with 3 Tech-Mod slots, what mods would you combine?
Mods in this case would be modular, meaning you can add/remove/replace with other mods, and the mods themselves would come with various stats such as Passive regeneration of any sort, or increased accuracy for example.

Hellgate London:
These mods could either be crafted, looted or both, but depending on the difficulty to get a mod, it has a greater chance of containing double stats, such as two Passives, or one Passive and an Active skill. Who knows, maybe the Tech-Mod contains an Active skill from a different job, maybe you can get a heavy weapon attack on light weapon.

Path of Exile:
Not only could the bonuses be either Active or Passive, but maybe they can completely change how an attack behaves, such as Chains and Forking... Perhaps you want your Deepstrike to make a charge-up knockback shockwave, or perhaps instead of knockback you perform a party-heal.... Maybe instead of shooting an energy beam you do an energy nova.

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Mix matching materials, adding Tech-Mod(s), optional skill behavior... That's 3 things for almost an infinite variety of builds, not even including the various skills and playstyles attached to the different frames.
Not only could they be attached to the character or frame, but also to vehicles for proximity repair or ammunition supplies. Plus, as sugar on top, it adds value to crafting, and more content.
 
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Sy

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#2
I'm confused. You're posting as though these would be new ideas, but all this sounds familiar; I'm pretty sure it's been discussed and will definitely be on the table for crafting.


For me, I'm especially interested in how Path of Exile's complexity can be learned from. I don't believe Hellgate London has been brought up before.

I'm currently wondering if ember not doing loot showers is really the way to go.
 
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DHYohko

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#3
pretty sure that different materials will affect the stats of what is being crafter, along with it's grade.

an example grumzz made is as follows.

you are crafting weapon X but you purposefully use a low grade material to lower stat Y so that you can push stat Z higher.
 

Sy

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#4
Also a reminder that Grummz has said it would be nice to have the player able to specify what resources are most interesting which would bias scans (or whatever) toward that resource.
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#6
I'm confused. You're posting as though these would be new ideas, but all this sounds familiar; I'm pretty sure it's been discussed and will definitely be on the table for crafting.


For me, I'm especially interested in how Path of Exile's complexity can be learned from. I don't believe Hellgate London has been brought up before.

I'm currently wondering if ember not doing loot showers is really the way to go.
I'm stunned, I thought it'd require the next Einstein to figure out it wasn't a new idea, but a mixed bag full of great ideas from older relics. You're completely right, parts of what was said here has been discussed but not as a collective idea brought to the table... But I just did, and hopefully some people might see this mixed bad as something enjoyable.
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#7
pretty sure that different materials will affect the stats of what is being crafter, along with it's grade.

an example grumzz made is as follows.

you are crafting weapon X but you purposefully use a low grade material to lower stat Y so that you can push stat Z higher.
That's great, tho this post shared more ideas than just mixing materials, it also adds Tech-Mod sockets for placing boosts to various stats... Ever played Hellgate London?
Basically you can get a number of different shaped sockets on a weapon, these sockets has themes like Regen, Damage, Damage Conversion, Passive Bonuses, etc. And you can switch them out for better ones as you rank up.
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#8
Also a reminder that Grummz has said it would be nice to have the player able to specify what resources are most interesting which would bias scans (or whatever) toward that resource.
Of course, that's gonna happen one way or another, but this way you'd at least increase the variety and number of different materials wanted. It also depends on playstyle, perhaps if you're more comfortable with a stable recoil maybe you'd want a heavier material, or if you're the rapid fire type maybe you want something more heat resistant. Give options, players will fill in the rest.
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#9
Perhaps loot showers could appear just for special events!
That'd be a nice event, tho as Chris Wilson explained with one of the problems they've had in PoE... People want to pick things up, but they're also annoyed when they have to pick up too much, the balance is in the middle, and what Sy suggested that items would just shower out is an example of too much things to pick up.
If we're getting loot from thumping I'd rather have thumped resources be available from base, suits the gameplay and immersion better if the thumper carried the materials to base instead of just spewing them out.
 

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#10
That'd be a nice event, tho as Chris Wilson explained with one of the problems they've had in PoE... People want to pick things up, but they're also annoyed when they have to pick up too much, the balance is in the middle, and what Sy suggested that items would just shower out is an example of too much things to pick up.
If we're getting loot from thumping I'd rather have thumped resources be available from base, suits the gameplay and immersion better if the thumper carried the materials to base instead of just spewing them out.
I keep wondering though just like in mario when you collect the coins and you hear the ding sound its rather satisfying well for some. Perhaps this depends on the thumpr type as i remember the firefall thumpr would collect it all and then once sent you got it.

The current Mek thumpr spews lots of the resource which i think it is either has a strange kind of drill bit or it is not drilling as deep as other thumpr types hmm

Then i am thinking nothing to do with thumprs and imagine if trucks picked up cargos with loots, and say they got damaged this could spill out.

So Reapers would need to collect the loot escaping and get the cargo container fixed asap before they lose too much for all to profit to deposit back at base!
 

Sy

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#11
I'm stunned, I thought it'd require the next Einstein to figure out it wasn't a new idea, but a mixed bag full of great ideas from older relics. You're completely right, parts of what was said here has been discussed but not as a collective idea brought to the table... But I just did, and hopefully some people might see this mixed bad as something enjoyable.
To be more clear, your post has little substance which hasn't been discussed. It was strange to me that you posted at all, as though you are not in the loop. I wanted you to know that everyone is on board; rest assured that these exact ideas (and PoE specifically) are already being considered by the devs.


... suits the gameplay and immersion better if the thumper carried the materials to base instead of just spewing them out.
Grummz said this will be how the actual large thumping will work. (The large thumping as with the robot in the present builds).

Nothing has been talked about for other smaller types of thumping, but I also think it's strange that the pilot/frame would pick things up and just keep everything. Maybe a better idea would be to carry only a certain amount (in an invisible "hammerspace" backpack) and the player calls their dropship to send resources away. This is done in Torchlight II with a pet.
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#12
I keep wondering though just like in mario when you collect the coins and you hear the ding sound its rather satisfying well for some. Perhaps this depends on the thumpr type as i remember the firefall thumpr would collect it all and then once sent you got it.

The current Mek thumpr spews lots of the resource which i think it is either has a strange kind of drill bit or it is not drilling as deep as other thumpr types hmm

Then i am thinking nothing to do with thumprs and imagine if trucks picked up cargos with loots, and say they got damaged this could spill out.

So Reapers would need to collect the loot escaping and get the cargo container fixed asap before they lose too much for all to profit to deposit back at base!
I did enjoy picking up coins as a noob, but it quickly got redundant since i got better at the game and I ended up only picking up the extra-life mushrooms that was hidden around the game to advance, it got boring picking up coins. The next challenge was to just speedrun the game so yes.

Indeed the Thumper animation doesn't match, I'd prefer Firefall style stationary thumper over current design any day.
One has to keep in mind to make things simple, and not make things tedious to the players... Forcing pickup-trucks on players presents 2 issues, 1 where it's a time-gate, and 2, how does this work for people preferring solo play?
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#13
To be more clear, your post has little substance which hasn't been discussed. It was strange to me that you posted at all, as though you are not in the loop. I wanted you to know that everyone is on board; rest assured that these exact ideas (and PoE specifically) are already being considered by the devs.




Grummz said this will be how the actual large thumping will work. (The large thumping as with the robot in the present builds).

Nothing has been talked about for other smaller types of thumping, but I also think it's strange that the pilot/frame would pick things up and just keep everything. Maybe a better idea would be to carry only a certain amount (in an invisible "hammerspace" backpack) and the player calls their dropship to send resources away. This is done in Torchlight II with a pet.
That's the beauty of making suggestions, because they can find common ground with the community while at the drawing table, or perhaps alter the course or have them question an idea before they put it to work, saving both time and resources.

This suggestion brought up 3 major points I have never heard Grummz talk about...

1. Different materials affecting stats on crafted gear, where mixing two different materials creates a new one just like in Tinker's Construct mod for Minecraft.

2. Adding Tech-Mods and Tech-Mod slots to the game, where crafting a weapon with a certain material can increase the mod slots by 1, or 2, much like weapon modules in Hellgate London.

3. The Tech-Mods themselves. They could add stats on a very varied bases, or completely change how a skill or weapon behaves, like multiple stats on gear or support gems does in Path of Exile.

If one of these ideas has been mentioned by Grummz, this suggestion is here to further expand the scope of his idea, and/or confirm he's going in the right direction but more could be added. I don't recall Grummz ever talking about changing behavior of weapons with Tech Mods, but if he did I'd be happy to read/hear more about it.
 
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Pandagnome

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#14
That's the beauty of making suggestions, because they can find common ground with the community while at the drawing table, or perhaps alter the course or have them question an idea before they put it to work, saving both time and resources.

This suggestion brought up 3 major points I have never heard Grummz talk about...

1. Different materials affecting stats on crafted gear, where mixing two different materials creates a new one just like in Tinker's Construct mod for Minecraft.

2. Adding Tech-Mods and Tech-Mod slots to the game, where crafting a weapon with a certain material can increase the mod slots by 1, or 2, much like weapon modules in Hellgate London.

3. The Tech-Mods themselves. They could add stats on a very varied bases, or completely change how a skill or weapon behaves, like multiple stats on gear or support gems does in Path of Exile.

If one of these ideas has been mentioned by Grummz, this suggestion is here to further expand the scope of his idea, and/or confirm he's going in the right direction but more could be added. I don't recall Grummz ever talking about changing behavior of weapons with Tech Mods, but if he did I'd be happy to read/hear more about it.
When there is so much complexity to a system that can overwhelm some players at first glance even myself.

I am not sure how it will all work but i do hope there's a progression to helps understand the more specialist paths a player could take.

With the example of the thumprs the progression from personal held device to advanced this doesn't mean any of them are obsolete. Once we progress to the various types of thumprs we have a choice of how to mine.

This goes with the rest such as the modification and skill tree we could uncover various ways to put skill and mods. Just need to make it a good progression so the player can understand what it does from different levels of skill/mod customization.

E.g.

Standard customization (This could be your basic few options of mods to introduce this to all players)
Advanced customization (As the player advances more options are revealed to untap the potential of item / frame etc)
Specialized customization (Here you can truely focus on an area you particularly enjoy for a style of play)



I did enjoy picking up coins as a noob, but it quickly got redundant since i got better at the game and I ended up only picking up the extra-life mushrooms that was hidden around the game to advance, it got boring picking up coins. The next challenge was to just speedrun the game so yes.

Indeed the Thumper animation doesn't match, I'd prefer Firefall style stationary thumper over current design any day.
One has to keep in mind to make things simple, and not make things tedious to the players... Forcing pickup-trucks on players presents 2 issues, 1 where it's a time-gate, and 2, how does this work for people preferring solo play?
Guess that's why there is coins, 1 up mushrooms and even hidden tunnels to skip levels on some parts, its good for all in that sense in how you want to get there.

Time was just an example it could be distance even, and as for solo well you could have different cargo sizes or types which may benefit solo players and larger one's such as larger thumprs add the risk of more loss if the team is not co-originated well.
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#15
When there is so much complexity to a system that can overwhelm some players at first glance even myself.

I am not sure how it will all work but i do hope there's a progression to helps understand the more specialist paths a player could take.

With the example of the thumprs the progression from personal held device to advanced this doesn't mean any of them are obsolete. Once we progress to the various types of thumprs we have a choice of how to mine.

This goes with the rest such as the modification and skill tree we could uncover various ways to put skill and mods. Just need to make it a good progression so the player can understand what it does from different levels of skill/mod customization.

E.g.

Standard customization (This could be your basic few options of mods to introduce this to all players)
Advanced customization (As the player advances more options are revealed to untap the potential of item / frame etc)
Specialized customization (Here you can truely focus on an area you particularly enjoy for a style of play)





Guess that's why there is coins, 1 up mushrooms and even hidden tunnels to skip levels on some parts, its good for all in that sense in how you want to get there.

Time was just an example it could be distance even, and as for solo well you could have different cargo sizes or types which may benefit solo players and larger one's such as larger thumprs add the risk of more loss if the team is not co-originated well.
Not at all complex, it's as easy as putting Steel into the furnace instead of Iron. We got to remember that the game needs content, and as crafting is going to be a major focus, it needs to NOT be generic, cuz that makes crafting boring.
Also, adding more materials gets rid of alot of meta from the game, as if there's just gonna exist 10 materials with no mixing or blending people are gonna find only 1 of those actually useful very quickly.

There needs no "specialist paths", just good crafting. Doesn't need to be more advanced than that, as if a weapon gains different stats from materials mixed, adding Tech-Mod slots to the weapon also expands the variety of playstyles, which is exactly what people want, people want to be unique and different and this is how you achieve it to the max, with almost no limit on variety.

If you haven't played Hellgate London, Path of Exile and Tinker's Construct mod for Minecraft, i rly suggest you do so you can see the combination I'm trying to picture here. Cuz it's easier than you think, even a child would be able to understand the basics, yet it'd add so much content you can't even begin to imagine the variety of builds you could develop here.
One also has to remember that Em8er needs replayability, the game can't be as simple as going straight with 1 character till the very end.
 

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Not at all complex, it's as easy as putting Steel into the furnace instead of Iron. We got to remember that the game needs content, and as crafting is going to be a major focus, it needs to NOT be generic, cuz that makes crafting boring.
Also, adding more materials gets rid of alot of meta from the game, as if there's just gonna exist 10 materials with no mixing or blending people are gonna find only 1 of those actually useful very quickly.

There needs no "specialist paths", just good crafting. Doesn't need to be more advanced than that, as if a weapon gains different stats from materials mixed, adding Tech-Mod slots to the weapon also expands the variety of playstyles, which is exactly what people want, people want to be unique and different and this is how you achieve it to the max, with almost no limit on variety.

If you haven't played Hellgate London, Path of Exile and Tinker's Construct mod for Minecraft, i rly suggest you do so you can see the combination I'm trying to picture here. Cuz it's easier than you think, even a child would be able to understand the basics, yet it'd add so much content you can't even begin to imagine the variety of builds you could develop here.
One also has to remember that Em8er needs replayability, the game can't be as simple as going straight with 1 character till the very end.
That depends on the individual some may find it complex while others who are more familiar with this kind of play won't.

Specialist paths such as in battleframes where you could chosen between the Dragonfly or Recluse.

I have had a go on path of Exile and think the modding there with gems was interesting the skill tree was too much and i didn't like that layout.
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#17
That depends on the individual some may find it complex while others who are more familiar with this kind of play won't.

Specialist paths such as in battleframes where you could chosen between the Dragonfly or Recluse.

I have had a go on path of Exile and think the modding there with gems was interesting the skill tree was too much and i didn't like that layout.
Which is fine, everyone has to start learning at some point, the only thing that's needed is an optional tutorial, a guide to get the players into the game, and while it's doing that it can also touch on crafting. If we don't want a generic game we don't ask for generic systems, and what has been suggested is neither generic nor too advanced than it needs to be. If a kid can manage to get into crafting in Minecraft, a grown up person (which is this game's target audience) can surely figure out how this system works.
It's the perfect blend of both content rich, and challenging enough to not get boring few weeks down the road.

Yes, Path of Exile's passive skill tree is overwhelming to most people, but once you take a good look at it, you'll actually find it's not that complicated, things are very well organized in terms of which kind of theme suits most builds. There are some relic builds that stretches travel nodes across both sides of the tree but they're usually not that viable unless you go for an absolute min-max build.
And that's the beauty of that tree, it's designed so the simplest mind can make the simplest build, yet advanced enough for people to make something completely crazy. Basically every super hero can be re-created in PoE, everything from Hawk Eye to Thanos.

But what has been asked here is not a recreation of PoE's passive tree, but their skill system, tied into crafting from Tinker's Construct where if you for example put Steel and Cobalt in the melting process to make a new material for your weapon you can gain a slot, ofc completely depending on materials used making the weapon... Rarer materials, more slots, where you can put in a piece of tech that can either boost the default damage it does, add other types of damage, or change how the damage is dealt, which is adopted from both Path of Exile and Hellgate London.

Tinker's Construct is actually one of the top-10 most popular mods for mod packs, and Path of Exile is a massive success. What would stand out here is Hellgate London, but if they had gotten rid if their subscription model I think that game would've made it. Unfortunately their developer (Flagship Studios) faced a major economical crisis, with lots of bugs and expensive development using DX10, which eventually bankrupt the company. There just wasn't enough income generated from the playerbase to save it, and both EA and Namco Bandai abandoned further support.
 

Pandagnome

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#18
Prey's crafting was nice imagine if you could start with something basic like this in crafting that gets you to progress in advance crafting in the same simple layout.


What i don't like with Poe is how progression is not really made aware for crafting at the time that i was playing, not sure on it now since i did not play it for sometime.