Remember all the Frames we could've had

[Excess]

A highly customizable Omniframe is a great idea.

Oh you like Turrets and Big guns? Take these modules.
Maybe you prefer to be a stealthy Meele Assasin. Then take these abilities.

Not being bound to a certain kind of loadout also comes with Balancing issues in e.g. PvP, PvE Content.

This is more or less how I have been feeling too. Toss the classes and give us a blank character to design our own playstyle. Include a lot of different options. shields, armors, mobilty, engineer tools, bio-chems, ammo types and lots of guns unlockable and accessible for everyone to customize with.

 

[Shuriko]

still annoyed at how they handled the frames in Firefall towards the end. It took the fun away.

 

[Kenofox]

Oh yes...I remember that. While we can only afford to model one frame for a future funding goal, I'd like to be able to do more in the future.

Or....it could be one omniframe, but you could buy different looks for it in the future. Hmmm, what to do?

Oooh. Omniframe sounds very exciting! I love customizable characters.

 

[phoenix]

I am with you on making everything avilable. Just need a way to limit things from bleeding over too much when combining. You want that stuff to be exciting and cool but we have all seen when two things collide unforseen effects can ruin gameplay.

I assume you read up on my points system with limiting Offense, Defense, support and utility. Let me elaborate more on it.

If we throw in passive boosts (like perks from FF), primary and secondary weapons into the point system and let those passives and weapons also cost points then it could be balanced easily. Give a player 10 slots and let him fill it up with as many weapons, passive and abilities as he likes as long as he stays within the 4 limits being "Offense", "Defense", "support" and "utility". Lets call them the 4 attributes. passives cost the least, weapons cost somewhat more and abilities the most. If you want to play as an Ember magician then you can will everything up with abilities but you'll have exhausted all your points by your fifth ability and won't have any weapons or passives. You can go fully loaded with guns but guns are kind of heavy and you'll miss out on those sweet abilities and passive boosts. If you want you can go full passive with melee only. Whatever flouts your boat.

From the start every players has 100 points in each attribute he can spend on abilities, passives and weaponry. The way you specialize in one of the attributes is by equipping gear such as motors, armor plating, pistons, thrusters,etc. that increase one attribute at the cost of decreasing the other. Heavier equipment give slightly more points but increase your hitbox size and make you slower.

limiting it with "mass", "energy" and "CPU" (like some suggested from FF) is to me arbitrary but if you limit at the root of the problem by directly limiting the attributes you make it impossible to attain the holy trinity.

some clarification:
Offense: Raw damage output, damage enhancers, elemental mods.
Defense: armor increases, shields, invulnerability, elemental resistances, damage negations.
support: buffing other players, healing other players, enhancing stats of other players, anything that interacts with other players, AOE, crouwdcontroll, stun, aggro-takers.
utility: self help like movement enhancers, non damage dealing deployables, barriers, self support, self heal.

if an ability, belongs in multiple categories then it'll cost points in all those categories. Some examples from FF would be:
Afterburner: heavy utility.
heavy turret: Offense and support
trailblazer: Support and utility
thunderdome: Defense, support and utility
Fusioncanon: Offense and support
Necrotic Bite perk: Offense
Invigorate perk: Offense and support.
Explosive Rounds: Offense and support(because of AOE)
Health Surge perk: utility

Now all we have to do is add perks and weapons to the progression tree and we're set. ^_^

(my advice, don't copy over FF abilities, perks or weapons, they are crappy and unbalanced, better start making your own unlique stuff like FF never existed)

Here is an example of how I image the Ember progression tree to look like. It's a teck-tree from "Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth"

 

[OziriusSVK]

limiting it with "mass", "energy" and "CPU" (like some suggested from FF) is to me arbitrary but if you limit at the root of the problem by directly limiting the attributes you make it impossible to attain the holy trinity.

if an ability, belongs in multiple categories then it'll cost points in all those categories

Your idea is very good and complex, but have one problem in balance: your gear doesnt belong to all of your proposed categories (Offense. defense, support, utility). So I will take that gear (weapon, abilities, armor,etc) that belong to only one category and craft it to maximum of 100 points in that category (weapon in offense, armor in defense, abilities for support and utility) and I have best dmg, best armor, and best utility and support. And if I cannot use all 100 points in one piece of gear I will still prefer those that belong to only one category. There is no min-max, there is only max.

Old "constrain system" was good, because each piece of gear could have absolutely opposite composition of "mass", "energy" and "CPU". And in the end you never exceed total maximum of Mass/energy/CPU. This system worked because ALL gear consist of Mass and Energy and CPU. So there you min-max your gear. I think CPU was for abilities, but I can be wrong.

Here is an example of how I image the Ember progression tree to look like. It's a teck-tree from "Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth"

I really like any progression tree, this one or some similar from old FF. Main point of having progression tree is, that player can VISUALLY see where his progression leads. The right progression tree should always lead to more horizontal progression.

This is just my opinion, feel free to discuss

 

[Grummz]

To be honest I haven't sat down to design anything about the progression system. But my personal tastes have been tiers and frames as "shells" that affect what upgrades you can put in them. Think racing games. Honda's get some upgrades, Ferraris get more options, dedicated race cars get even more. So a tier system could unlock those "shell" frames. BUT, I've no idea right now. Need to put a lot of thought into this.

Also pointing out we have an update on http://www.crixa.io/emberthgame for T.H.M.P.R. orthographics. Formal updates on the game will be posted there, so pls bookmark it.

 

[phoenix]

There is no min-max, there is only max

problem with that is that if:
1) you put all your weapon-points, pasive-points and ability points into offensive gear you'd burst down everything.
2) you put all your weapon-points, pasive-points and ability points into defensive gear you'd be an unstoppable tank.
3) you put all your weapon-points, pasive-points and ability points into utility and support you'd allow others to stump content at incredible speed.

Now if you go with my idea you wouldn't be able to go with the most damaging weapons, passives and abilities at the same time. You'd stil have good DPS but not overpowered. Same with defensive, you'd be a decent tank that can take a good beating without been unstoppable because there is a cap on your defensive attribute.

To sum it all up. putting a cap on the 4 attributes prevents players from becoming too powerful in any of the 4.

This system worked because ALL gear consist of Mass and Energy and CPU

It wans't a bad system it's just that those 3 numbers don't have any meaning, it doesn't reflect on anything. If I told you that an ability uses up X Mass, Y energy and Z CPU you wouldn't be able to extract any information from it other then it beeing highend gear or low end gear. How do you even dictate how much mass energy or CPU a gear uses up?

In my system if I tel you that an ability uses up W Offensive, X defensive, Y support and Z utility points then you have the foilowing information:
W is based on how much damage it deals. The higher the W the more damage it deals and vice versa.
X is based on how good it is on keeping you alive. The higher the X the longer you'll survive.
Y is based on how good you are able to prevent damage to your team and sustain your alies. The higher your Y the more your team is able to take on.
Z is based on hou much you'll be able to sustain yourself apart from armor, The higher your Z the faster and versatile you are.

The energy/mass/CPU system is roughly the same as the 4 atributes system because energy mass and CPU is chosen based on the 4 attributes by the devs. The 4 attributes is essentially more primitive and complex then the M/E/CPU but is more flexible.

Lets say that an ability needs to be nurfed or buffed? with the 4 attributes system you'd just need to adjust one of the 4 numbers. if it deals to much damage but you don't want to touch the Damage then increase the offensive cost. If a movement ability is too weak but you don't want to change the speed then you can Decrease the utility cost. tweaking the 4 attributes feels intuitivly easeyer to tweak in balancing then in E/M/C system.

your gear doesnt belong to all of your proposed categories

Ok, I'll elaborate more on that too then.
Gear like armor plates, servos, thrusters, engines, (maybe helmet, maybe arm guard, maybe leg guard...) change multiple stuf. they change the balance of the 4 attributes. for example:
Equipping "hardened armor plates" give you extra HP and a bonus in the defensive attribute but your utility points will be decreased. this item has more mass and volume, there fore your hitboxes are larger and you move slower.
Equipping "light armor" reduces your HP and defensive attribute points but you get more points in (for example) offensive attribute. because this armor is lighter and has less volume you have smaller hitboxes and move faster.
Equipping "blazing engine" reduces support and utility points but significantly increase your offensive points.
Equipping a heavier version of the same item gives you a bigger bonus and a smaller penalty but makes you heavier and therefore bigger hitboxes and lower speeds.

In summary: you have 4 attributes with a hard cap. Omniframe mods move the these caps up and down. Omniframe mods all have their own mass and volume. The heavier you are the slower you are. The more volume a mod takes up the larger your hitboxes become (this also changes the visuals of the omniframe and makes your character bigger)

 

[phoenix]

http://www.crixa.io/emberthgame

That is a handsome cloud you have there, keep up the good work XD.

 

[OziriusSVK]

View attachment 80
That is a handsome cloud you have there, keep up the good work XD.

Link is wrong, it is only missing letter E in emberthEgame, cloud is fine