Permission system for Frames (Suggestion?)

[Shadow]

I asked in discord, and apparently it was a good idea to come put it up here for discussion so...
Here ya go:

I don't know if it was discussed already, but humor me and respond please.
Would there be a chance of our frames being permission locked in a sense where we could share their usage to other players (of the party for example, or army/guild/clan, maybe friend if need be specific).
Don't get me wrong I can see why most wouldn't want to do this, but I always love having more options in playing the game, and helping others, that there may be a time where I would have the capability to afford being that guy trying to help someone and it wouldn't hurt me much if it backfired.
Thoughts?

 

[Wyntyr]

Might not be a bad idea depending on how OF usage is implemented. Could also be a rental option too.

 

[Terib.Shadow]

Big approval from me, definitely a great way to coach new reapers.

 

[Degiance]

I like the idea.

It got me thinking what would happen if you allowed the use of your frame turning combat when your friends frame is busted/broken and you have like a instant frame drop out cooldown so you could keep them in the fight. Or would it cancel out the ability to call down a new frame if your back-up frame is on use..

 

[Omnires]

I like the idea guilds being able to make super thumpers that can do mining on a massive scale. And being able to go toe-to-toe with a cat5 kaiju if need be. Guilds can only have one of them active at any given time. So who has the power to call it down and pilot it could make or break a mining run or battle. So have good teamwork is key to using them effectively.

 

[Myumyuh]

You mean like, allowing other to pilot mech with the acceptance of the owner?
'Cause if it is, then i would gladly have that option. Some of my friends always have doubt and i can just lend it to her and demo run the parts she's curious about.
If that isn't what you meant, then i'm not understanding of what you said.

 

[Shadow]

I like the idea guilds being able to make super thumpers that can do mining on a massive scale. And being able to go toe-to-toe with a cat5 kaiju if need be. Guilds can only have one of them active at any given time. So who has the power to call it down and pilot it could make or break a mining run or battle. So have good teamwork is key to using them effectively.

What you're saying sounds more like taking control of the thumper during a drill, not a bad idea in my eyes, and sounds like we're going away from the classic escort this weird AI mission.
Having a 'VIP' set category sounds like a nice thing to me as well, but it is not what I had in mind.
Regardless. Have my blessing on this if it gets going aswell

You mean like, allowing other to pilot mech with the acceptance of the owner?
'Cause if it is, then i would gladly have that option. Some of my friends always have doubt and i can just lend it to her and demo run the parts she's curious about.
If that isn't what you meant, then i'm not understanding of what you said.

Yeah. Basically allowing someone to take control of one of the frames you pick, temporarily (Unless they go and destroy it, the extent of this control, and possibility of destruction, depends solely on how far this feature would be pushed to allowing the owner options/control)

 

[Faeryl]

... Would there be a chance of our frames being permission locked in a sense where we could share their usage to other players (of the party for example, or army/guild/clan, maybe friend if need be specific). ...

Might not be a bad idea depending on how OF usage is implemented. Could also be a rental option too.

+1 to your suggestion Shadow!
I like the idea of being able to help ALL Reapers whether they're new or players that want to be able to jump right in and join the war effort; rather than worry about best builds.

A frame rental sounds like an interesting idea too. They could be rentals from either the game itself or other players. There could be a small rental fee for the game's omniframes, a deposit for player omniframes, and also have options on length of time for the rentals.

For example, Reapers could rent one omniframe at a time from the `Kertsa Associates Corporation` at X # of <insert currency here> for 1 day, 3 days, 7 days, and 14 days.

Renting from another player could be something like a deposit of X # of <insert currency here> for 1 hour, 4 hours, 8 hours, or 12 hours; and once you return the omniframe, you get back your deposit.

Sometimes a demonstration of what is possible with SO many choices helps more than telling; you know the saying ...

"Tell me, I forget, show me, I remember, involve me, I understand."



8 FOR EM-8ER


~

 

[zdoofop]

I admit I can see the practical application for this idea. One thing prevents me from liking:the thought of the mecha-as-a-service thing being taken out of control leaving no mechs on the trading post, or those that are there being unaffordable. What's worse, if that happens, any conversion from premium currency to earned currency would automatically result in a pay to win game EVEN THOUGH IT ISN'T CRIXA'S FAULT!!! That said, perhaps there is a way that this can be implemented properly that I can't think of right now, but oherwise, no.

 

[Maven]

Love the idea, having an option to help someone get into the battle quickly when they are short on time and OFs can only be a good thing. Also it is particularly useful when dealing with a certain kind of enemy, perhaps the player renting the OF does not have a build suited to fighting the creature, and you happen to have a spare build that suits the situation.

That said, implementation of the system appears a bit long-winded and cumbersome. I'm not being a party pooper mind you, just throwing up situations and conditions to bear in mind.

Biggest concerns:

1. Frame Ownership and authority: Who owns the frame at what time. If the ownership is with the player who gives the OF on rent, there is a potential for trolling. He could 'recall'/'despawn' the frame when the player renting the frame is in the thick of the battle, leaving him vulnerable.

If the ownership remains with the player who is renting the OF, what are the conditions to ensure that the frame is returned to the rightful owner. The OFs are likely the biggest personal investments for a player, and if sufficient steps are not taken to protect that investment, things can easily go wrong. I can see potential for the GMs having to intervene in severe cases.

Now, the above is a condition based on the individuals that populate the dregs of the community, but if the game is large enough, rest assured, there will be individuals in that particular demographic.

This is likely sorted by ensuring that you rent out frames only to trusted individuals or friends.

2. OF loss compensation: What happens when the OF being rented is destroyed. In these situations, often the losses suffered by the player who rents out OFs is much higher than one that does not. At some point, if there is no system for compensation if the OF is destroyed by another player, the losses start to add up, and players start to think twice about renting out.

If indeed there is a compensation system, how taxing would it be? If, say, the compensation is in resources, what percentage of value would you assign to the OF being rented. The value will constantly be one for debate in the community. It might be a trivial thing for a player with a sufficiently large resource bank, but it can prove excessive to others, and that may actively discourage them from renting out OFs.

Alternative: What if, perhaps instead of personal OFs being rented out, you had the option of building guild/base OFs. This is just a mix of the Guild THMPR idea by @Omnires and the original idea from @Speedy93. These would be stock standard OFs, or even standard archetypes (sniper, assault, medic, tank), without any of the bells and whistles, that are available to anyone who requires an emergency OF. Built collectively by guilds or automatically generated from the resources deposited at a base, these could help random players, while reducing the risk of loss on the individual. Just a thought. Perhaps reserve renting out personal OFs only to very trusted individuals and have this as an additional option for others.

Sorry if that came out as negative. I just think it pays to be doubly careful when it comes to personal investment in the hands of others.

Also, @zdoofop the Pay2Win condition comes only when it's the devs themselves that are selling power or when there is a condition of exponential growth in power based on the amount of money you can throw at the game. In most situations, you, the owner, will be using your best OF and the others go on rent. Besides, how exactly would you describe a Win condition here? Does player Y doing more damage with an OF that he rented, somehow affect your enjoyment of the game? That's just the OF being better than what you own. And there is no paywall that stops you from building an even better OF. Let's not throw around the Pay2Win tag with such abandon.

 

[Drakin5]

Or how about a plan B:
How about you can rent out the frame in a controlled simulated area to see and feel the omniframe role. It’s like driving your rental car to the nearest track to see how it performs. Sure you won’t see any actual combat but this gives you some baseline mark for your future OF.

But if you want other “functions” for your rental OF, I know someone who can do that.

 

[Pandagnome]

Or how about a plan B:
How about you can rent out the frame in a controlled simulated area to see and feel the omniframe role. It’s like driving your rental car to the nearest track to see how it performs. Sure you won’t see any actual combat but this gives you some baseline mark for your future OF.

But if you want other “functions” for your rental OF, I know someone who can do that.

I like Drakin5's idea also good for mech racers as well !!!

The idea of a simulated area mentioned would be a nice idea it is like
going into a showcase room where you can imagine seeing all and customize yourself
then an npc would say bla bla bla this is that and this has big arms because bla bla
and then you could use it and test it out in the little obstacle area and target practise area etc

once your done the npc could give you tips on what to do so you have a good start in getting what your after perhaps hmm

 

[Shadow]

WoW.. this really seems to have sparked.. Thanks for all your thoughts!

However, there's one thing I'd like to split up and clarify the confusion that came with it.

- All frames are going to be viable, since there's no actual level, nor 'strength' increase, it's just a matter of how you customize your frame. So there's nothing P2W about this in any way/shape/form. @zdoofop
- There's actually an extended idea around my original thought, renting. I'll address further down @Maven
- Another idea with 'Try IT!' area, being extended into races with any luck @Drakin5 & @Pandagnome

Now let me address my original thought and all the extras above mentioned.

Original Thought:
Just allowing calling down an OF for someone to control, as mentioned above, permission could be setup by having tags of 'owner' & 'user' at the time. The 'risk' with this would be the same as for yourself, if it's destroyed, it's gone.
As for allowing the owner to recall it and troll control, @Maven 's concern, I say give the owner 2 options, request call back, allowing the user to accept it, simple/nice/friendly/easy, 2nd option would be a bit more harsh, but it is there to stop trolls and similar, do a forceful evacuation of the OF with a 5 minutes (time maybe could be adjustable, or maybe different feedback's on it) notice to the owner and user, and handle it like that.
Since there will be trading in the game, if the user of the OF destroys it, and feels bad for it he can try and compensate the owner, but this idea is completely based on trust, and this is not it's primary concern.
There's one thing I did miss on though, which is logging out, and I feel like it would be fair to do the 2nd option of evacuation here as well, but with perhaps more leeway time, or options again allowed to the owner. Example, 15 minutes (~3x the ejection time, or completely optional and settable) after the owner logs off, the user will be notified and he can return it earlier, or will be forcefully ejected.
I feel like this is enough time to allow the user to play around and find room to swap, not being in combat.
Side note:
Keep in mind that there will be trading, I doubt the extent would be so high as to allow us to trade OF's in full, but if it is, you could have complete transfers of ownership.

Renting idea:
I like how this sparked more interesting ideas on how to make it even more entertaining. Very nice!
Renting could be done in many different ways, I don't think renting from base resources would be a good idea @Maven because some people could dry up a base and it would be always pressuring bases on the front, meaning most of the bases wouldn't want to be built there.. but that's how we would push forward..
I do like @Faeryl 's idea (very extended description as well). I would say use it as a building block to start from. In case frame is destroyed you would need to pay back the other part of it on top of the original deposit.
And to use a part of @Maven 's idea with bases, you could have the terminal in every established base with the terminal, provided they built it. It wouldn't use the base's resources though, would just go to the deposit.

Try IT!/Races idea:
Love it, Try IT! also possible to integrate with renting in a nice manner.
So I would say when renting allow for a Try IT! option where you would be taken to a 'shooting range' of some kind, no risk of frame destruction, to see if you like it before deciding to pick it for renting.
Races:
I loved the open world idea FF had, I'd honestly like to see it happen in open world here as well.
I would suggest 2 types of races, 1) with preset OF's, 2) with owners OF's
This would mean we have '100% balanced' and races where people can try out how fast/agile their OF's are compared to other folks.



That was a lot of text.. In the end. I love having options in these situations. I can see myself using them from time to time if they end up being possible in any capacity.
All the other suggestions that happened in the discussion are also very nice, but do keep in mind they may be built on top of another suggestion, or a misinterpretation of the concept (so far so good though). Thanks for your feedback everyone

 

[EvilKitten]

I would say 1 Omniframe per reaper. Which isn't an argument against your idea, so much as I do think there should be restrictions. If you let someone else use your omniframe that means you would not have one to use. Otherwise a long term player could throw down a pile of frames for other players to use, negating them needing to build a frame at all. Imagine what that would mean for making alts...too easy to abuse without 1 omni per reaper restriction.

 

[Shadow]

I agree with a limitation need, but 1 is too low in my opinion.
I'd say ~1-2 allowed 'shared' OF's per player max, but this implies that the owner could still walk around in his suit uninterrupted by this, and couldn't exploit it with multiple accounts by much as you suggested.
I agree there should be restrictions. One of those would be a time limit, meaning it would be highly awkward to use with multiple accounts to begin with, because of a constant clock over your head.. This is not the point of how to play this game.. but it would be as an option for trying out a OF to and see if you like the playstyle or not

 

[DinsdaleP13]

What's the cleaning procedure between people using them? I'd rather get stomped on, than use one of @Pandagnome 's frames after he's been in it. A good steaming at least, right?

 

[Faeryl]

In case frame is destroyed you would need to pay back the other part of it on top of the original deposit.

I like that idea!

There are going to be people who troll others that is a given. I think as a measure to prevent that kind of abuse, if you rent out one of your frames, it immediately goes on a 15 minute cool down. Once that 15 minutes has passed, you can recall it to your inventory (causing a forced evacuation with a 10 minute advanced notice to the user); and the player who was renting gets their deposit back.

Just an idea ... I don't know if it would work the way I think it would.


On a 'normal' rental, after X amount of time has passed, the OF would automatically return to the original owner's inventory; and the player renting would get their deposit back.

In terms of renting from the Em-8ER, it would not be a deposit. It would be a small fee for temporary use of an OF. It would be in your inventory until X amount of time has passed; and then automatically returns to the game's inventory. These would be aside from the generic base OFs players would receive at the start of the game.

Another idea I thought of was being able to buy/rent/sell/trade (take your pick) BLUEPRINTS of OF builds; both player built and the Em-8ER dev builds.

@Speedy93 I also l like the idea of "TRY IT" ... that could be a great idea for all aspects (OFs, weapons, and abilities).

Good suggestions/ideas everyone!


8 FOR EM-8ER

~

 

[Pandagnome]

What's the cleaning procedure between people using them? I'd rather get stomped on, than use one of @Pandagnome 's frames after he's been in it. A good steaming at least, right?

I have the answer for you

This Killer clean whale will appear at the mech wash make sure you comply they are called killer for a reason :O

 

[EvilKitten]

I agree with a limitation need, but 1 is too low in my opinion.
I'd say ~1-2 allowed 'shared' OF's per player max, but this implies that the owner could still walk around in his suit uninterrupted by this, and couldn't exploit it with multiple accounts by much as you suggested.
I agree there should be restrictions. One of those would be a time limit, meaning it would be highly awkward to use with multiple accounts to begin with, because of a constant clock over your head.. This is not the point of how to play this game.. but it would be as an option for trying out a OF to and see if you like the playstyle or not

The key is that if you cannot give someone else your omniframe WHILE you yourself are still using one of your omniframes. I feel like this point is important. You should only ever have 1 omniframe out on the battlefield at a time. Someone(s) can take your frame out for a spin sure, but they need to return it to you before you can use a frame yourself.

 

[Shadow]

At this point I do disagree @EvilKitten . I believe you should be able to share 1 for a time without being hindered yourself. But we can agree to disagree on that matter. We don't even know if it would happen, no word from anyone that can actually make it happen yet XD