List of the best aspects of older games.

punkbuzter#6186

D-Gater
Ark Liege
Jan 6, 2021
55
96
18
Sweden
#1
Ok, so instead of going blindfolded into market (kickstarter and/or live version) with a set state of mind, here's a list of unique things that made older games the relics they've turned into. As time has proven that the generic way is profitable, but never lasting, I would much rather like Em8er to be a long lasting game than a quick cashgrab or an overlooked game.
So here it is, the list in no particular order:

Don't make ammo a generic consumable thing.
Instead, do what they did in Hellgate London where one type of ammo either boosts a specific damage type, add one, or change it into something else. Path of Exile also lends the same idea where ammo is not consumable but adds or changes stats or how the damage behaves.
More good things about Hellgate London is the mod slots in weapons, as RNG can give a weapon single mod slots, or 5, where you can put in various mods that either boosts or changes how the damage behaves, like Kinetic adding and/or turning it into Splash damage.
Grummz wanted to make this game a PVE version of Planetside, and PVE implies RP/RPG, so instead of having specific classes dropping ammo boxes for refill, make it more fluid and less class dependent. Nobody wants a stagnant group of players waiting for someone that can supply ammo.

Make monthly territorial wars. Perfect World International was a very successful game for a very long time and part of its success was the massive territorial wars over the continent (world map).
It starts with guilds bidding the highest amount of in-game currency that the guild and its members collectively saves up to fight an NPC faction, after that, the territorial map is completely player driven once a month with guilds fighting guilds, the more land a guild has the more rewards it receives to cover the expenses and efforts put into the bidding.
Stagnation is counteracted with a full map reset once a year where old guilds break down and new ones are born.
This is a concept not many games have further developed, there's only one game that I know of that used a similar thing, Aion and its "Fortress Control".

Give players a reason beyond the social part to join a guild.
Some games like Aion and Chaos Online had tools within the guilds that the Guild Master and ranked players could utilize to change how the members advance in the world. Aion had Legion Stores, where members of a guild could buy items and materials collected by other players, this in turn helped the guild financially, a win-win situation. This would also be great if there's plans to avoid having a Broker/Auctionhouse in the game. Additionally both Aion and Chaos Online also had a feature where ranked players could lock EXP for a player if someone wanted to grind specific monsters without leveling up, to obtain items or materials that only specific monsters dropped (dungeon or world bosses for example). Alternatively a ranked guild could offer individual players a togglable button within the guild-window to turn EXP on/off himself.

Character customization on-the-fly.
I know it's a controversial game, but it has the absolute best way of implementing after-creation changes;
League of Maidens - allows you to make changes to the character after creation as long as you do not ascend, ascending your character makes you able to progress and level up... So technically, as long as you're Lv1 you're free to change your appearance as you see fit.

Counteracting website spammers.
Many games have this plague of bots spamming chat with websites selling currency...
Having to reach a specific level to talk publicly is one thing.
Being able to block/ignore is another.
Selling the game as B2P.
But the best I've seen have only been implemented by one game that I know of. And it's Perfect World International, again.
They were selling "Megaphones" in the MTX store that allowed players to talk to everyone publicly with a small cooldown to prevent spam, it was also tradable so anyone who spent an hour or two in the game could afford them without spending real money, they were just tedious for bots to acquire as it involved both progression and trading. I believe almost all of these points is required to prevent bot spam in chat.

Friendly dynamic NPC factions.
Freelancer... This game had a very replayable aspect with its factions unlocking fraction-specific items when friendly enough, and being friends with one faction made you unpopular with another so you always wanted to adapt your standing depending on what you wanted. There's not much else to say about it, it's just a damn good mechanic and that's it.

Crafting and soulbound items.
In my world, soulbound items are the worst that could possibly happen to a player-driven market, I just hate the concept as a whole. Please don't do this... I'm bringing up Path of Exile again where the player driven market is perfect because it doesn't restrict anything from being tradeable.
I'd also like to bring back Perfect World International into the mix again as they had a very nice aspect in crafting, where the crafter of an item had its name written in the stats "Crafted By: Pandagnome", "Enchanted By: Wyntyr" it's just a nice attention to detail that I like to bring back to life, especially if there's going to be RNG in crafting - as someone who wants to dedicate time into being a crafter this would be a good thing to add. Not all of us wants to fight, some wants to create.

Feel free to add your own thoughts, but try to focus on these ones as I'm looking for confirmation that it isn't just me who believe these points made the games that much better.
 

Abyssalrider

Tsi-Hu Hunter
Jan 26, 2017
13
34
13
28
#2
You may not be aware of this, but as it currently stands EM-8ER will not have vertical progression (no character or frame levels locking items away from use) so several of those suggestions are moot to begin with.
  1. A megaphone consumable would be a poor choice in a pve planetary war game. When you need help defending something, you can't afford to not have a the right consumable to send a message out asking for backup. Not to mention that the megaphone consumable is a very predatory monetization scheme that punishes active players for being social with the community while playing. (Also very heavily restricts the ability of players to coordinate groups across the zone/planet and strategize the best way to protect our zones and claim new ones.)
  2. If ammo wasn't finite, emphasis on accuracy (this is planned to be a skill-based game) wouldn't be there and a spray and pray playstyle would be the go-to answer.
  3. I don't foresee most equipment being "bound" to a player since equipment is the primary source of power increase.
  4. We already have a territorial war with the Tsi-Hu, why would we want to compete with other guilds for control of the territory we just took from the Tsi-hu? That gives less incentive to be a global community working together and more incentive to not help other guilds defend their zones because they have more territory than yours.
  5. Friendly factions in-game have no reason to work against each other, they're all Gatestriders struggling to terraform and colonize a planet to act as their new home. Refusing to work with each other in that scenario is self-sabotage when they have no planet to go back to and no way to leave if they wanted to.
TLDR: while some of these seem like good ideas; the driving nature behind them was inherently bad, the idea is already unlikely to not be present, or they just won't work with the type of game Em-8er is set to be.
 

punkbuzter#6186

D-Gater
Ark Liege
Jan 6, 2021
55
96
18
Sweden
#3
You may not be aware of this, but as it currently stands EM-8ER will not have vertical progression (no character or frame levels locking items away from use) so several of those suggestions are moot to begin with.
  1. A megaphone consumable would be a poor choice in a pve planetary war game. When you need help defending something, you can't afford to not have a the right consumable to send a message out asking for backup. Not to mention that the megaphone consumable is a very predatory monetization scheme that punishes active players for being social with the community while playing. (Also very heavily restricts the ability of players to coordinate groups across the zone/planet and strategize the best way to protect our zones and claim new ones.)
  2. If ammo wasn't finite, emphasis on accuracy (this is planned to be a skill-based game) wouldn't be there and a spray and pray playstyle would be the go-to answer.
  3. I don't foresee most equipment being "bound" to a player since equipment is the primary source of power increase.
  4. We already have a territorial war with the Tsi-Hu, why would we want to compete with other guilds for control of the territory we just took from the Tsi-hu? That gives less incentive to be a global community working together and more incentive to not help other guilds defend their zones because they have more territory than yours.
  5. Friendly factions in-game have no reason to work against each other, they're all Gatestriders struggling to terraform and colonize a planet to act as their new home. Refusing to work with each other in that scenario is self-sabotage when they have no planet to go back to and no way to leave if they wanted to.
TLDR: while some of these seem like good ideas; the driving nature behind them was inherently bad, the idea is already unlikely to not be present, or they just won't work with the type of game Em-8er is set to be.
1. The Megaphone in this case would be for the social aspect (global chat), Planetside 2 for example has command channels where people request backup platoon to platoon, but it's a tactical chat that's non-public, not a social chat like a global channel.

2. I can name many games that doesn't use ammo as a consumable source of damage, and it has never been a problem. Not to mention this is a PVE focused game, not a competitive PvP game where accuracy is main focus. So spray-n-pray shouldn't be a problem.

3. That doesn't tell me much, other game developers knows that locking down content is unfit for an MMO with player driven economy, yet they do it, idk why. Nothing is ever for certain.

4. Because of content... If a guild/clan caps a specific splash of land that, let's say was previously ruled by a faction called CopacabanaMiningGuild (assuming there's NPC factions like in Freelancer), conquering that splash of land gives you and/or your guild benefits from dealing with CopacabanaMiningGuild in the future, like better trade deals, unique weapons or items that's unique to this faction. If you've played Freelancer you know what I'm talking about.

5. People have been in disagreement for the past 10.000 years, I find it hard to believe that they'd suddenly share the same goals and ideas, so actually, factions only makes sense.


The purpose of these points is to be universally addable to any RPG game regardless of their nature, and if it doesn't currently fit, it doesn't mean they can't since these points are also ideas for more content in the game. For example, if there aren't factions, they can add it, and it'll spawn a ton of new content for players to explore, but more importantly, give players reasons to play through the game many many times with a new experience each time they do it.
Replayability is a missing factor in most modern games, that's why you hear ppl complain about having to play through the campaign and wants to insta-level to max all the time... Which marks the death of the game since new players won't have the slightest clue of what they're being dragged into.
 
Last edited:

DBug

New Member
Ark Liege
Jul 28, 2016
4
5
3
#4
I have to agree with Abyssalrider on this one.

The game should focus more on enhancing it's strengths as that will be what makes people stay and play the game. Adding layers of inconvenience, however noble the reason, works against players as much as it does bots - particularly new players or players who might try out Em8er as their first game in the genre.

The Ammo suggestion also adds complexity for complexity's sake. Why not just have equipment as a whole have innate affinities for certain elements as opposed to juggling ammo packs? This will encourage more creativity when it comes to equipment loadouts as opposed to everyone run the same meta-level gear and the same set of consumables. Make certain weapon classes with better affinities with certain elements so the meta for certain builds isn't limit to "Battle Rifle always best regardless of element hon hon hon"

As far as PvP is concerned, it's always been a niche market and Firefall was one of my shining examples of why PvP-interests directly conflict with those of a PvE experience. Imagine being that guy who enjoyed a character/class because of certain unique skills only to have those same skills punted into the ground because a select few people found a way to abuse them in PvP. This will make people quit the game fast as it undermines the investment they made around those classes, characters, and skills. Now they could very well create and balance PvP separate from the core gameplay loop, but that takes development resources away from improving the core experience to an experience that realistically only about 15% of any given playerbase will actually give more than a few tries. You'd also be inheriting all the problems you'd see from your traditional fighting game and will actively have to manage those in addition to building the base game - Not easy, very time consuming, very expensive.

I disagree with a player-driven economy though this is more of an opinion than adjective reason as to why it should be avoided as many of these issues can be worked around.
Getting the obvious out of the way: One problem with player-driven economies is that they're easily hijacked by bots and as such make the game a bigger target for botting.
However to avoid nitpicking, the biggest issue with them is rampant Inflation cycles. After a few months, everything of value becomes too expensive for never players and older players have no incentive to sell anything of value because they will continue to become more and more valuable as time goes on. So you have the problem of older players hoarding, making the supply for goods of value low, drastically increasing the price of the goods in the favor of the people who want to sell it (older players generally), and basically making the economy gated to people who either don't spend real money to acquire those resources or can't contribute hundreds of hours grinding just to make any sort of meaningful purchase. There are no shortage of examples of this very issue - Just look at any major MMO where the abundance of materials is dictated not by the game, but by the player. Bots make this problem worse because they'll just buy up all the goods and then turn around and relist them for inflated prices.
 

punkbuzter#6186

D-Gater
Ark Liege
Jan 6, 2021
55
96
18
Sweden
#5
I have to agree with Abyssalrider on this one.

The game should focus more on enhancing it's strengths as that will be what makes people stay and play the game. Adding layers of inconvenience, however noble the reason, works against players as much as it does bots - particularly new players or players who might try out Em8er as their first game in the genre.

The Ammo suggestion also adds complexity for complexity's sake. Why not just have equipment as a whole have innate affinities for certain elements as opposed to juggling ammo packs? This will encourage more creativity when it comes to equipment loadouts as opposed to everyone run the same meta-level gear and the same set of consumables. Make certain weapon classes with better affinities with certain elements so the meta for certain builds isn't limit to "Battle Rifle always best regardless of element hon hon hon"

As far as PvP is concerned, it's always been a niche market and Firefall was one of my shining examples of why PvP-interests directly conflict with those of a PvE experience. Imagine being that guy who enjoyed a character/class because of certain unique skills only to have those same skills punted into the ground because a select few people found a way to abuse them in PvP. This will make people quit the game fast as it undermines the investment they made around those classes, characters, and skills. Now they could very well create and balance PvP separate from the core gameplay loop, but that takes development resources away from improving the core experience to an experience that realistically only about 15% of any given playerbase will actually give more than a few tries. You'd also be inheriting all the problems you'd see from your traditional fighting game and will actively have to manage those in addition to building the base game - Not easy, very time consuming, very expensive.

I disagree with a player-driven economy though this is more of an opinion than adjective reason as to why it should be avoided as many of these issues can be worked around.
Getting the obvious out of the way: One problem with player-driven economies is that they're easily hijacked by bots and as such make the game a bigger target for botting.
However to avoid nitpicking, the biggest issue with them is rampant Inflation cycles. After a few months, everything of value becomes too expensive for never players and older players have no incentive to sell anything of value because they will continue to become more and more valuable as time goes on. So you have the problem of older players hoarding, making the supply for goods of value low, drastically increasing the price of the goods in the favor of the people who want to sell it (older players generally), and basically making the economy gated to people who either don't spend real money to acquire those resources or can't contribute hundreds of hours grinding just to make any sort of meaningful purchase. There are no shortage of examples of this very issue - Just look at any major MMO where the abundance of materials is dictated not by the game, but by the player. Bots make this problem worse because they'll just buy up all the goods and then turn around and relist them for inflated prices.
I like complexity, I like when one playthrough is not the same as the previous 100 times...
Some people dont' like PvP and I get it, but I find PvP to add layers of content by itself, besides, the way I'm suggesting to implement it is a monthly activity, it's not meant to be a daily routine nor something anyone is forced to participate in. If Em8er is to be a successful game it needs to open its doors to as many people as possible, otherwise it'll be a niche product for a niche market.

Em8er is looking to be like Planetside, but PVE focused instead... But the reason why Planetside did good was because it's PvP. If you turned Planetside into a PVE game you'd need a ton of content to make up for it, and the best source of content is player driven.
 
#6
Ammo should not be infinite, yes. And every weapon-type should be able to draw from a common ammo-pool. Their weapons would simply convert the loaded energy-cell, or metal slugs, or whatever, into the exact caliber rounds they'd need. We only need some convincing technobabble to explain how that works. And, once again, the Mass Effect games come to mind, as an example for how that could be written. So, if support classes or assisting dropships would deploy supplies that would refill our stocks, everyone, wielding any weapon, could refill their ammo from it. Any effect that could be applied to them would/should come from the mods in the weapon or even from toggle-able ammo-powers, also like in the Mass Effect games, imbuing shots with different elemental effects. But, that's not the same as the difference between splash damage and regular shots. If you have a weapon that's been modded to act like a grenade-launcher, it would makes sense that it would only deal splash-damage, but you could still alter its elemental effects. An energy weapon wouldn't do kinetic damage for you, ever and vice-versa. The Vision Book distinguishes between kinetic, energy and splash, the latter simply meaning any damage that results from a non-direct hit. So, I suppose both kinetic and energy weapons that have a more...explosive ammo could inflict splash damage or AoE.

Territorial wars will constantly be fought against the Tsi-Hu, as PvE. On some fronts we'll be on the offense, on others, on the defense. Any battle that isn't against the Tsi-Hu sounds dangerously close to potentially being PvP. And PvP we DO NOT need. But, the previous commenter put it better. Lore-wise, it would make no sense for Gatestriders to fight amongst themselves for territory. Sure, there will be a pirate-faction, but I don't imagine they'll ever be a threat to an entire territory. They'll have to contend with the Tsi-Hu as much as they will with us. Hmm...I wonder how/where/when Cpt. Lucretia and her Sky Pirates will fit into all of that. But, again...they're not the same as guild wars.

Guilds spell PvP, and again, we WILL NOT HAVE PvP crap. We have Houses, yes, but they're not territorial, by lore. Perhaps later, as part of the lore, some Houses, or just a certain one, could turn overly ambitious and could attempt to claim territories exclusively for their own, which could spark the emergence of the first clan-wars, but strictly within the lore of the game, and not player-created ones. Therefore, it would still be strictly PvE. With that said, I wonder if our own player character could choose a background with a House, or if we will be able to apply to be affiliated with a House later, through gaining trust, doing missions for them, to feel more a part of the lore. I already came up with the concept of clan-less/house-less Gatestriders, for my own short stories. I can only hope that it could become canon in-game.

Character customization on the fly was already (partially) available in FireFall, where you could go to a garage and change some of your character's appearance, switch haircuts and stuff. And since Em-8er aims to be more than just a mere spiritual successor and blow the whole tried and true, tiresome, terrible MMO formula out of the water and into orbit, it's safe to assume we'll enjoy such freedoms, definitely without any weird level-restriction. That sounds weird. Certainly not the best "after-creation" if it only allows you to change anything if you remain on the first level. And in Em-8er, there will be no levels. Vertical progression, as stated before, will be done away with. It sounds like FireFall, itself, was ahead in these things, already, compared to other games. So Em-8er will only be even better.

Factions
won't necessarily exist. The closest thing we have, in the lore, are the different Houses, but, again, they're not competing on an official level. Their individual members may like or dislike members of other Houses, namely Garrack, for whatever reason. Now, as I've said before, we could have a reputation system, trust we could build with the different Houses, enjoying some perks, either in the form of passive bonuses, assist on the field, cheaper repairs, special items, special House-specific customization options for our appearance and that of our MEKs and frame. Nothing that could unbalance the game and nothing that would put those not wanting to affiliate with any House at a disadvantage. It's not a new concept in the world of MMOs. Nothing that couldn't be implemented, improved, streamlined...etc.

For chat, by lore, we have the Fabric to communicate and coordinate through, which can already act like a quiet megaphone, as odd as that sounds. In-game, that can simply translate to the same kind of chat we had in Firefall, which was pretty neat, where one could speak to everyone in their immediate vicinity, in a 50m radius, 100m, wider and wider and zone-wide, specified by a slash command of /(one letter). In Em-8er it could even work through voice-command via microphone, to make you feel as if you were talking to some VI-assistant program. Having a megaphone consumable, as cheap as they might be sounds not only lore-breaking, but unnecessary in such a setting. I understand it would be to prevent spamming the chat, either by bots or by players, but there has to be a more subtle and less lore-breaking option than having to stock up on a consumable-type just to address players.

We should be able to create filters, too, of course. Block, re-enable, restrict to a certain radius, having a time-restriction also sounds reasonable, and...if it's possible and programmable, perhaps the chat window could simply shake the text, enlarge it, brighten the color or bump a "help request" or any repeated line, to the top, emphasizing and re-emphasizing it, so people would notice more easily, without it filling up the chat. And market-related chat, advertising selling and buying, should/could simply have its separate sphere that a player could also access with a touch of a mapped key or even (possibly custom) voice-command, again. "What's on the market?" or "Show me the market!" Would only be recognized, when said like that, as a whole question or order, to prevent accidentally bringing it up, by the mere mention of the single word "market." The game would only accept the whole command, then, it would bring up the market window for you, unobtrusively, wherever you want it, wherever you previously customized it to be shown, within the options menu. Another good feature of Firefall was how much we could customize the HUD elements, from their size and position to the color. Hopefully it will make a complete return and then some.

Bound items ARE a bad idea, indeed. I like the idea of the name of the crafter to appear, to give the item a personal touch. And I like that, by nature, you'd prefer to craft and not necessarily be out fighting. Not my thing, personally. I do like to tinker, of course, but, after that, it's killing time. Em-8er can hopefully evolve to allow anyone to play the role they want. Perhaps you could spend your leisure hours At the Forge.
 

Pandagnome

Kaiju Slayer
Ark Liege
Happy Kaiju
Jul 27, 2016
6,361
8,550
113
Island of Tofu
#7
I would much rather like Em8er to be a long lasting game than a quick cashgrab or an overlooked game.
We really want that for sure!


Don't make ammo a generic consumable thing.
What if we had different ammo types with advantages and disadvantages such as

- Consumable Ammo these are more specialized and need to be crafted or purchased in some facility.
They can be of different grades because some are bigger or smaller and some may have different coating and others are modular and can go into all weapon types but may not be as specialized as one specific to the weapon.

- Regenerating energy ammo these replenish by using the excess heat of firing and kinetic energy of the pilot moving the mek, even the sunlight etc etc They may not be as powerful as consumble ammo but are great as a backup.

- Ammo eating device just like in those cartoons where you see some character eating the ammo.

That would build up a temporary ammo pool until it is max, to use by switching to the temp ammo eater pool you could then fire those and a cool down would appear as the process for holding the energy fired needs energy to absorb and cool down before it works otherwise the device could damage and prolong the cool down or even be damaged and need repairing.


Make monthly territorial wars
Here are some thoughts as to why territorial wars could be done:

- There is a 3rd party opponent and they could be:

* Tsihu Zombies & their Zombie kaiju's = Tsihu more slower but even more deadily in numbers
* Space Pirates = Greedy, burping and farting evil pirates who want shiny things and power.
* Cyborg Death cult = To purge the world of all as the cult brings new meaning to the reset
* Parasights = Taking player/npc hosts to do their bidding from a far and if they unlatch too late is fatal so saving the innocent and finding where the Parasights originate is paramount to stopping them.

Territory could be at war for different reasons e.g

* Location of a hidden gate whom ever finds it can locate a place of great interest or great terror!
* Hostages are kept and need to be rescued before they are brainwashed and turned against you!
* Provides a strategic point for the long battle against the tsihu
* Specific resources rich and may help to boost the process of world tier and base building
* Liberate the citizens of the island from the opponent for them to live in peace
* Secret Experimental enemy factory stopping this and able to research/learn new tech
etc

Give players a reason beyond the social part to join a guild.
Perhaps joining a guild gives things such as:

- Custom Guild uniform & Symbol
- Starter pet guildy Up Horse a small horse from the old times of the ancient west
- Training for those wanting to spar and practice in the Simulation room.
- Battle blabber, get your tactics right your setup right and get right to play
- Pet works, explore the other pets in the guild and see more in the petcyclopedia
- The chosen one, this could be done each day but cannot have the same person in the space of a month or 2. They would randomly pick a guild player and let them pick a prize in the guild bank e.g.
either 1000 potato credits or a rare turtle hat or a weapon mod etc etc
- Bump my rides, you want to upgrade your rides this is the place a dedicate area for vehicle lovers who want to bump it to the next lvl
- Crafty time, you want to see the craft master the guild has them, they will show you the collection of goodies and to even become one someday

Character customization on-the-fly.
This is good and just as @MattHunX mentioned it was done in the battle garage in firefall so i'd guess it could be done here too.

Counteracting website spammers.
What if there is an advertising board to advertise your service e.g. Reaper Protection service for 12 popcorn credits per hour contact Tiny whiny 101

Then you can check on a list of adverts on the day or week you could post a few times only to prevent spam. Also before advertising is complete each time a random input needs to be confirmed to complete the advert or it does not work e.g. Af49fKaPoc4 (this is random each time)

The actual chat could have a filter to white list or black list the content/spam which could give the player option.


Friendly dynamic NPC factions.
I'd like friendly npc not just doing one thing but depends on the npc

E.g.

- Asking for your help
- Could provide intel of a location
- Discount on items they have in their collection
- Supports you in a specific time if they are available
- Comes to the party social event and explodes confetti on you and does a stupid dance before vanishing.
- Remembers your birthday and gives a random reward e.g. taxi service for a day etc

Crafting and soulbound items.
The personal touch is great it is like you have signed a piece of art work.
Bound items is not so great but passing over transferable items to others is like how you could imagine when your grand parents handed you a nice item like a watch. Then you pass it on to your family member it becomes like a tradition as long as it is well maintained and repaired!
 
Likes: Wraithbane
#8
@Pandagnome

Heeeey, I like the idea of ads appearing in the environment. If I remember correctly, when you put something up on the market in FireFall, you had to pay a small fee. Here, we can pay a fee, our stuff would be put up, some lines on the market's chat sphere would appear on the in-game Fabric, to be seen by those who are currently browsing and perhaps we could have the better, more sought-after items (selected by the market, through "demand detection") appear on the holographic displays and ad-screen, electronic billboards...etc. scattered around HOME station, "Downtown", even a few could be placed on established ground-bases, at certain, fixed locations. Imagine walking around, off-duty and you'd see an ad pop up at some places, advertising the items on the market. It could be done for immersion. Then...of course, if people could name their items, it could also be abused to display some "other" kind of messages to be shown around the station.


Also, through the same "demand detection" (which would function like a wish-list), whenever someone would specify a certain type of item, module, weapon...etc. they need, as soon as one would be put up by someone else, they'd get a ping through the Fabric, a simple message notifying them the item they're looking for is available for purchase and from whom. From there, they could even re-negotiate the price with the person, through a private Fabric-channel, provided the person is currently online and if no one else just simply buys the item until then. The owner of the item would have the option to view their marketed items and temporarily make them unavailable, while they'd sell it off to the specific person that contacted them. A confirmation window would appear, only to the seller, where they could alter the price agreed upon (or leave it unchanged), then, upon confirmation, the same window would appear for the other person, and when they'd agree, the transaction would be completed. But, while they're doing all of that, the item would be made unavailable, so no one could buy it, while they would be in the middle of renegotiating its price.
 
Likes: Pandagnome

liandri

Omni Ace
Omni Ace
Jul 29, 2016
308
775
93
Zone of Bones, Australia
www.youtube.com
#9
Don't make ammo a generic consumable thing.

I didn't mind this in PS2, probably because I die before I expend all my ammo anyway. Wanting to have some realism in Ember, infinite ammo just doesn't sit right. Being assailed by a horde of Tsi-hu and only needing to worry about that last point of HP doesn't feel very skill based. I think ammo capacity needs to be finite, based on the weapon and the type of omniframe you have, but still have a lot of it. Section 8, which I doubt anyone here is familiar with, allowed you to switch classes and reload weapons on the fly by calling down a drop pod. While this would not work on an individual level (being that every player would try to call one down, and that would be a nightmare), perhaps they could be called down x per x area, and contain a supply of different ammunitions. They expire within a set time or after everything is out. Every player can call down with their own resources, but it can assist all other players on the field. Certain vehicles might be able to resupply players (the THMPR could do this).

In short, enough ammo to get through an event, but not so much that you're confident you won't run dry.
Give players a reason beyond the social part to join a guild.

Guild unlocks aren't something I've seen in games before, outside of guild-set permissions (bank tabs and the like). Contribuiting to your guild should be like contributing to the war effort, since it serves the exact same purpose. I've previously mentioned the idea of guild equipment, where the guild funds their own armoury that can be provided on loan to members during events. You contribute resources or tokens, and the guild covers repairs and munitions. The outcome is that members have access to extremely high-grade gear and can assist the guild in battle more effectively. Warframe's 'Dojo' gives you access to crafting special equipment and weapons, so this could be an idea too. On a grander scale, guilds (or houses even), could unlock "world" blueprints; spending resources to introduce new weapons and things into the game (such as purchasing DRM blueprint licences, see my point on Soulbound equipment).
Character customization on-the-fly.

Agreed for clothes and accessories, but changing skin tones, gender, race, anything cybernetic I'd lean towards a 'New You'-type station for realism sake. The New You station could also serve as a hub for trying on and purchasing cosmetic items.
Counteracting website spammers.

Since Ember is a buy-once, play forever game with a 'high-indie' price point, rather than a F2P, I think that alone with deter most bots due to the higher cost. Not being able to chat as a newbie, especially since we have such a good community, seems like it would be to our detriment, since the community is such a valuable sticking point for people. Newbies also need assistance, and with Ember being more skill-based than a standard MMO, they may need some questions answered.
I'd lean more towards unlocking some chat channels based on progression, so maybe you could set it up like:
- Mentor Chat: Unlocked immediately
- Local Chat: Unlocked immediately, but /yell, /pm are restricted until an event is completed
- Global Chat: Unlocked after completing one event

On the topic of the "Fabric", a possible justification for restricting some commands until you complete a task or event could be that you're new, and command wants to make sure you aren't thinking about that cute girl at the tiki bar and transmitting your dirty thoughts to those on the frontline. Just while you get adjusted to the tech.
Friendly dynamic NPC factions.

I can think of many games across genres that had friendly NPCs who did their own thing independent of your actions. Someone on Discord mentioned a bio-mechanical enemy, like a compromised omniframe. I wrote briefly in a fan story about compromised OP-AIs and their omniframes. We also have space pirates. Having different factions doing their own thing, helping and hindering us, would be awesome. Shooting aliens is fun, but if I'm space trucking, I wouldn't mind killing some space pirates too.
Crafting and soulbound items.
"Soulbound" items could make sense in terms of a sci-fi mech game; consider DRM as an example. One licence, one OP-AI. You could play with the concept in a sci-fi fantasy setting, but also allow for trading of these items by "cracking" them, allowing them to be tradeable with other people at the cost of lower stats. This way, you can craft your own high end gear and when something better comes along, crack it, sell it to another player who needs something better. It would require some lore about the corporation who developed it, why DRM and licencing exists still, the downsides of "cracking" something and why it makes it less effective, etc. But it could work, and provide a bit more depth to the world.
That said, 100% agree that just because you make an item and use it once, it shouldn't be bound to you forever.
What if there is an advertising board to advertise your service e.g. Reaper Protection service for 12 popcorn credits per hour contact Tiny whiny 101
That's a really cool idea, totally fits with the reapers.

Other points.
- You could justify Guild vs Guild or House vs House on an economic level. Yes, we all need to work together, but I don't believe for a second everyone there is purely altruistic. There will be a power struggle. To avoid a PvP situation, the outcome of a GvG/HvH scenario needs to benefit all players in some way, maybe by providing everyone the faction bonus of the winner (+% research speed, +%crafting speed, etc). But it would have to be on an economic level, and the players would need a reason to participate. Either rewards from their house for participating, or a possible bigger reward if they win.
- Completely agree with Abyssal on the megaphone.
- There really isn't any good way to stop bots. Bots and gold farmers are insidious. The effort will be spent creating an account and jumping through hoops if the possibility of a good payday is there. FFXIV was the worst signup experience I've had with a game, and I still see RWT posts there. Unlocking chat options through gameplay sound good to me, but taking a page from Twitter's book, shadowbanning obvious bots or specific RWT phrases might also work.
- For the dev team: I'd love to hear more about the bases and how they'll work.
 

Pandagnome

Kaiju Slayer
Ark Liege
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Jul 27, 2016
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#10
If I remember correctly, when you put something up on the market in FireFall, you had to pay a small fee. Here, we can pay a fee, our stuff would be put up, some lines on the market's chat sphere would appear on the in-game Fabric
Oh yes thats a good idea!!!!

Also, through the same "demand detection" (which would function like a wish-list), whenever someone would specify a certain type of item, module, weapon...etc. they need, as soon as one would be put up by someone else, they'd get a ping through the Fabric
I wish they have that makes it easier some games just make you read a flood of text and the waiting was sooooo poopy that you just end up doing other things and then you realise someone had already sold it because the intensity of the flood and not noticing as it scrolls fast and emojis and random numbers :eek::eek:


I have the section 8 prejudice played it abit never did get the chance to play the multiplayer mode sadly :oops:

perhaps they could be called down x per x area, and contain a supply of different ammunitions. They expire within a set time or after everything is out. Every player can call down with their own resources, but it can assist all other players on the field. Certain vehicles might be able to resupply players (the THMPR could do this).
:cool: i like that


mentioned the idea of guild equipment, where the guild funds their own armoury that can be provided on loan to members during events. You contribute resources or tokens, and the guild covers repairs and munitions. The outcome is that members have access to extremely high-grade gear and can assist the guild in battle more effectively. Warframe's 'Dojo' gives you access to crafting special equipment and weapons, so this could be an idea too.
This would help the Guild the players who want to help out and in turn the crafter have some work to do too!

- Mentor Chat: Unlocked immediately
- Local Chat: Unlocked immediately, but /yell, /pm are restricted until an event is completed
- Global Chat: Unlocked after completing one event
At least they can still communicate for help and the local chat and once they complete that 1st event then they can see the rest of the option with the A.I announcing "Reaper comms have been upgraded, you have been given clearance to the network, well done on your first successful Major Mission Pilot :cool:"

On the topic of the "Fabric", a possible justification for restricting some commands until you complete a task or event could be that you're new, and command wants to make sure you aren't thinking about that cute girl at the tiki bar and transmitting your dirty thoughts to those on the frontline. Just while you get adjusted to the tech.
Ah the mind good idea so much things go on inside the mind those Reapers got to be focused hmm

I can think of many games across genres that had friendly NPCs who did their own thing independent of your actions. Someone on Discord mentioned a bio-mechanical enemy, like a compromised omniframe. I wrote briefly in a fan story about compromised OP-AIs and their omniframes. We also have space pirates. Having different factions doing their own thing, helping and hindering us, would be awesome. Shooting aliens is fun, but if I'm space trucking, I wouldn't mind killing some space pirates too.
Also we could even be sneaky and steals the pirates treasures!!

consider DRM as an example. One licence, one OP-AI. You could play with the concept in a sci-fi fantasy setting, but also allow for trading of these items by "cracking" them, allowing them to be tradeable with other people at the cost of lower stats.
:cool:

but taking a page from Twitter's book, shadowbanning obvious bots or specific RWT phrases might also work.
That could help reduce the issue would it be hard to do?
My concern is could it affect actual players too that may get caught as a bot by mistake?

The slower process of a screen print or chat log hilight sent to the team who then can look at the logs and see if that was done and to give the verdict and take action of what was done depending on the severity

Although it could be a pain but it sure would deter when you have the combination because sometimes the technology may not be 100% correct.
 

zdoofop

Firstclaimer
Jul 26, 2016
513
723
93
Noneofyourbeeswaxistan
#11
I like complexity, I like when one playthrough is not the same as the previous 100 times...
Some people dont' like PvP and I get it, but I find PvP to add layers of content by itself, besides, the way I'm suggesting to implement it is a monthly activity, it's not meant to be a daily routine nor something anyone is forced to participate in. If Em8er is to be a successful game it needs to open its doors to as many people as possible, otherwise it'll be a niche product for a niche market.

Em8er is looking to be like Planetside, but PVE focused instead... But the reason why Planetside did good was because it's PvP. If you turned Planetside into a PVE game you'd need a ton of content to make up for it, and the best source of content is player driven.
Perhaps Territory grab doesn't have to be PVP, rather it could be a race for the most territory grabbed from the Tsi-Hu, PS2 alert-style. So let's say team Navels, team Oppai, and team Maid Grummz is Really Really Really Really Hot are playing and an alert comes over the comms. At the endo of the alert, team Navels has grabbed 32 bases, team Oppai took 63 bases, and team Maid Grummz is Really Really Really Really Hot took 9 bases, team Oppai would be the winner of the alert.
 

punkbuzter#6186

D-Gater
Ark Liege
Jan 6, 2021
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#12
When I say "no consumable ammo" I have a couple games that comes to mind, one of them is Minecraft where enchanting the bow with "infinity" is meta, nobody wants to deal with constantly buying/crafting/picking up or worrying about ammo running out.
I have no problems with reloads and cooldowns from guns heating up, but having an ammo pool is a big no-no...
I haven't played most of the games listed but if you make a Google search for "games with infinite ammo" you'll get a lot of games, and most of them have been very popular, so I don't see why infinite ammo wouldn't be a good thing. Even Planetside 2 has weapons with infinite ammo and it's one of the most used weapons in the game, it has a cooldown tho but still infinite, just like the plasma gun in Em8er.

Right now Em8er doesn't have an ammo pool, right now it's infinite since you don't have to pick up ammo boxes and I like it the way it is.
 

punkbuzter#6186

D-Gater
Ark Liege
Jan 6, 2021
55
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Sweden
#13
Regarding the "buy once and play forever" deal, I have little to zero faith in current industry that this is going to hold up to its promise. New games pops up all the time as Buy2Play and later converts to Free2Play as if it was a marketing stunt all along.
Either we'll buy Em8er and have a whole bunch of DLC's to pay for in the future, which I hate. Or, it'll turn into F2P 1-3 years down the road. Buying the game is a boost for early development, but not a sustainability... Fashion/Skins are, but that won't be enough to cover the expenses of future development when most of everyone has already bought the game.
We also have to remember that FireFall was free, and most of yall played that game because it was free, including me. So believe me when I say that I don't believe in this "buy once and play forever" model.
 
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punkbuzter#6186

D-Gater
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Jan 6, 2021
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#14
Somehow, I think most of yall quoting me with feedback on my points, has never played the games I've been referring to....?

Planetside 2
Perfect World International
Path of Exile
Hellgate London
Aion
Chaos Online
Freelancer

If you guys haven't played these games, how can you be negative to their content or how it would be implemented?
 
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Pandagnome

Kaiju Slayer
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#15
have no problems with reloads and cooldowns from guns heating up, but having an ammo pool is a big no-no
Why not have some weapons with infinite and others with ammo

The ones with infinite are easier nothing much to worry about the ammo as they would replenish in time.
The infinite weapons could have a way to increase the capacity as an example a laser weapon could fire for 5 seconds continuously before running out with a capacity upgrade it could last for 10secs.

The weapons with Ammo pools could be older type weapons and some may be louder or others are a hybrid using ammo pool and infinite when the ammo pool is depleted.

The reason why i'd have the ammo pool for some is it could add to the weapon choices and that the crafters could create some ammo packs.

Regarding the "buy once and play forever" deal, I have little to zero faith in current industry that this is going to hold up to its promise. New games pops up all the time as Buy2Play and later converts to Free2Play as if it was a marketing stunt all along.
I think if the base game is of good quality with enough things to do most would pay for the core game.

Either we'll buy Em8er and have a whole bunch of DLC's to pay for in the future, which I hate.
If the Expansion packs are unique compared to the base game and adds an extra amount and layer to the experience then it would be worth it.

One thing i remember someone mentioned they love playing a game because there was also community player content in the mix.

So what is to say some content may be free and others are purchased and that way there will be lots more to do. The price has to be competitive and not over priced, and not forgetting there may be discounts/deals for expansions perhaps e.g. xmas time

Grummz mentioned applying for this

With the ambition of the Em8er team i think they will have a good chance for this!!!

Planetside 2
Perfect World International
Path of Exile
Hellgate London
Aion
Chaos Online
Freelancer
Out of these games have played Hellgate london a very tiny bit at my friends and played path of exile and planetside 2. The others i have not.
 

liandri

Omni Ace
Omni Ace
Jul 29, 2016
308
775
93
Zone of Bones, Australia
www.youtube.com
#16
That could help reduce the issue would it be hard to do?
My concern is could it affect actual players too that may get caught as a bot by mistake?
The slower process of a screen print or chat log hilight sent to the team who then can look at the logs and see if that was done and to give the verdict and take action of what was done depending on the severity
Although it could be a pain but it sure would deter when you have the combination because sometimes the technology may not be 100% correct.
Any automated system would create false positives, but a completely manual could be very time consuming if there are a lot of bots. A standard reporting option might be best for the beginning when there isn't a market for RWT, and systems can be added on later depending on how widespread the issue is. Again, they have to purchase the game first, so that alone will deter low effort bots.

When I say "no consumable ammo" I have a couple games that comes to mind, one of them is Minecraft where enchanting the bow with "infinity" is meta, nobody wants to deal with constantly buying/crafting/picking up or worrying about ammo running out.
I have no problems with reloads and cooldowns from guns heating up, but having an ammo pool is a big no-no...
Even Planetside 2 has weapons with infinite ammo and it's one of the most used weapons in the game, it has a cooldown tho but still infinite, just like the plasma gun in Em8er.
Weapons in Minecraft still have durability and must be repaired. A bow with Infinity is essentially a bow with a large ammo pool that will eventually need to be replenished before it becomes unusable.
Having an ammo pool is a good way to balance stronger weapons. Not suggesting that it affects every weapon, nor suggesting that you get a few magazines and are consistently running back to refill your reserves. If you choose something with an ammo pool, you have enough to get the job done. It's when you have a prolonged engagement would you really notice it, begin to make your shots count, get more ammo, work around your energy recharge rate and your cooldowns and hold out as long as you can.

Planetside 2 is the only game I've played from your list, Aion too but not for long enough to remember anything. I played Defiance 2050 but it was really buggy. My preferred shooter experience from Unreal Tournament, hence my thoughts on weapons and ammo, even vehicles to a degree.

As for Ember ending up as a F2P, yeah, in the realms of possibility. I'm aware of a handful of people who purchased the skins for $35, so at least the cosmetic price point is worth it for some, and the $10K month they currently receive from Patron is a good sign too. I'd say it'll be B2P for the first few years at least.
 
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DHYohko

Member
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Nov 6, 2018
16
35
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#17
Regarding the "buy once and play forever" deal, I have little to zero faith in current industry that this is going to hold up to its promise. New games pops up all the time as Buy2Play and later converts to Free2Play as if it was a marketing stunt all along.
Either we'll buy Em8er and have a whole bunch of DLC's to pay for in the future, which I hate. Or, it'll turn into F2P 1-3 years down the road. Buying the game is a boost for early development, but not a sustainability... Fashion/Skins are, but that won't be enough to cover the expenses of future development when most of everyone has already bought the game.
We also have to remember that FireFall was free, and most of yall played that game because it was free, including me. So believe me when I say that I don't believe in this "buy once and play forever" model.
there aren't many options for funding indie games like this, you either have a obligatory monthly sub that turns away lots of players, or you have a cash shop like they plan to that sells only cosmetics. Also don't forget that there is a optional monthly sub of 7$ that, if you buy into before the kickstarter, gets you peerless skins worth 20$+ every month.

Also if you have zero faith that this game will live up to it's promises, even knowing who is making it, the why are you here?
 
#18
Somehow, I think most of yall quoting me with feedback on my points, has never played the games I've been referring to....?

Planetside 2
Perfect World International
Path of Exile
Hellgate London
Aion
Chaos Online
Freelancer

If you guys haven't played these games, how can you be negative to their content or how it would be implemented?
Well, you gave the names of games, then, you described how a certain system worked within them. Going by your descriptions and why they were good (and why they would be good for Em-8er), I simply pointed out, without having played (and without having to play) any of those games, that they were not exactly unique designs and were generic/standard to a lot of other MMOs, not just the ones you specifically mentioned and in the case of a few of them, I pointed out that, either FireFall already had something similar (which means, Em-8er will definitely have it and can only improve upon it) or that we already have something similar in Em-8er's lore, as well, that could be implemented in-game and it would resemble a certain system, like guilds/Houses.
 

Pandagnome

Kaiju Slayer
Ark Liege
Happy Kaiju
Jul 27, 2016
6,361
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Island of Tofu
#19
In the midst of the battle of Doubts and faith continue, the Em8er team continue moving ahead in their space truck.

The A.I Dragon knows just what to do, and plays the perfect song from the past reminding of their Determination!

 

punkbuzter#6186

D-Gater
Ark Liege
Jan 6, 2021
55
96
18
Sweden
#20
there aren't many options for funding indie games like this, you either have a obligatory monthly sub that turns away lots of players, or you have a cash shop like they plan to that sells only cosmetics. Also don't forget that there is a optional monthly sub of 7$ that, if you buy into before the kickstarter, gets you peerless skins worth 20$+ every month.

Also if you have zero faith that this game will live up to it's promises, even knowing who is making it, the why are you here?
I already know, I've paid for the game and I'm a monthly subscriber. That doesn't mean all my concerns are gone, in fact they get worse since I worry that my funding would go to ruin. This is the first game I have ever bought before it's released, and it's the first game I've ever paid a subscription for...
I worry because I have good reasons for doing so, since 99% of all games released since 2010 has been milk-factories with no intentions of making the games better, as one who has been gaming since the early 90's it's safe to say that the industry has moved from making games better to making games worse, for the sake of quick money.
WoW was the only game that used to focus on longevity, but if even a titan like WoW falls for the money-grab then who's to say Em8er won't?
Out of all games currently under development, out of all games released since 2010, Em8er has the most potential, and to me it's the only shining light that pierces the pitch black abyss that is the current state of MMOs. So you'll have to excuse me for being skeptical.

You even mention it yourself... "you either have a obligatory monthly sub that turns away lots of players, or you have a cash shop", this is how it used to be, back in the days. Back when games were good, back when game makers made the best possible game out of the money they had... Today they don't think like that, today they focus on how they can make the game so that you spend more money.
 
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