Instance debate

[AdmiralStryker]

I'm saying this: Make the content to be a set baseline that requires 20 people to do it. Make it such that it cannot be done with less people than that-instead, add in BONUS CHALLENGES that INCREASE THE AMOUNT OF LOOT YOU GET for those who are SKILLED AND COMPLETE THE CHALLENGES.

I don't care if skilled players are more effective than baddies. That's how it's supposed to work. I'm completely fine with that. I'm fine with rewarding skill but I want it to be clear through how the game is designed that skill is supposed to be rewarded. Running an encounter with half or 25% of the people it asks you to use is not how the game was designed to be played.

If the instance is designed for 10 people, it should REQUIRE 10 people to enter it. If you want more loot, then put in bonus challenges to grant more loot. I'm not arguing off of what Firefall did. The instances there were designed such that 5 people could enter a 10 man raid. While that's fine for Firefall, this is a different game and I want to see it be cut and dry what a raid requires. Once again.

I want to see a raid REQUIRE 10 people to enter it. I want to see that same raid have optional bonus challenges that you can complete to get more loot. These challenges should be hard and require skill.

I would rather see the above paragraph than a raid that allows you to enter with up to 20 players, that you can complete with 5 in order to get 4x loot. Both instances I'm speaking of should give the same amount of loot. One is designed to give bonus loot for skill(the first example), the other is designed ambiguously(the second one) to give bonus loot.

Also, if you read my post, when I referred to a raid that could be done with 5 people for 4x loot, that was a hypothetical scenario. I'd appreciate my posts being read too.

 

[BunnyHunny]

I said you change the ability ONLY INSIDE THE INSTANCE.

IE: When you're in the instance, the ability does 20% less damage let's say, to keep things balanced in there. Outside, it's perfectly normal.

I'd rather see them(assuming we're talking about this case) modify the ability only when they're inside that certain instance.

Yep. I misread that.
Still not a fan of the idea.

 

[BunnyHunny]

I want to see a raid REQUIRE 10 people to enter it. I want to see that same raid have optional bonus challenges that you can complete to get more loot. These challenges should be hard and require skill.

Bonus challenges all great and stuff, but why FORCE people to bring a full platoon?
What is the benefit?

Why not allow any number of players up to 10, and have the bonus challenges?
What would be the downside of that?

 

[BunnyHunny]

double post
RIP

 

[IAmJohnGalt]

I thought mark said that em-8er wasnt even going to have "raids", and if thats the case what the hell are you guys even talking about this for? There is no debate to be had if em-8er isnt even going to have raids in the first place?

 

[BunnyHunny]

I thought mark said that em-8er wasnt even going to have "raids", and if thats the case what the hell are you guys even talking about this for? There is no debate to be had if em-8er isnt even going to have raids in the first place?

Yeah... this discussion originated in a different thread, where we talked about why it would be useful to put at least some instancing into the game (knowing that MK is not planning it).

Some people said some things and then we started arguing about this topic.
And since some people keep bringing up certain things, this topic will probably not die too soon.

At least we got moved, so that the other thread can be used to discuss things that are more likely to happen.

 

[AdmiralStryker]

Bonus challenges all great and stuff, but why FORCE people to bring a full platoon?
What is the benefit?

Why not allow any number of players up to 10, and have the bonus challenges?
What would be the downside of that?

If you're going to argue for armies requiring people to group up, this is why. So you have to, y'know, group up.

EDIT: The instance should also be tuned to actually REQUIRE 10 players. As in if(despite the game not allowing it) you bring in 6 players, you would not be able to complete it.

 

[Degiance]

You should also consider the RTS element. When you take in everything mentioned in the visions book.
Sure i can see instances as a off-time kinda thing when people can be sure Kai-ju aren't gona wreck the bases or the AI isn't plotting something while people are hustling to collect resources to rebuild or upgrade, reinforce defenses and plot counter strikes. It all really depends on the tempo of the game and for what i have read thus far, instances would be like pouring tar on a race track while the races were on. (Granted there hasn't been talks on what kinda AI is it going to be and if the mobs are going to be purely commanded by the AI other than the mobs aren't going to be scripted too much. )

 

[BunnyHunny]

.

How about answering my questions?

Why did you not answer them?

And don't give me the "but i did answer your questions", because you clearly did not.

benefit of forcing to play full platoon:

downside of allowing to play with fewer people:

 

[Destination]

Or if you are willing to lock 99% of the player base out of the content, because they are too bad.

I'd like that.
If it comes to 'natural difficulty' and not 'gear check' or some other nonsense then I'm in. End-game should be an achievement, a carry/leecher-free land and not a pointless grind. Give players something to look forward with enthusiasm (contrary to 'pointless endless grind' which you always do solely on 'endurance mode').

99% may not get there because they get bored 1st and in most cases it's understandable because games aren't good enough as to generate motivation (they use the 'enslaving' tactic because they can't come up with anything better). That's when the game's retention power and progressive difficulty come to play too.
It's simple: anyone should get there if they like the game and stick to it, but it will not happen overnight and nobody will be able to offer any kind of shortcut. PvP games can pull this off naturally. PvE would need some considerably thoughtful and careful design.

That's what I want to see, that's what 'hard content' truly means. A 20-man you do with just 5 people isn't hard content, it's just that playerbase is mostly composed of bads because the game promotes that way of play and gives not enough incentives to try otherwise. Can't really blame players for that. I'd love to see that change for once. On another note, I'd love support roles to be valuable. Being good isn't just aiming faster and precisely.

 

[Destination]

I thought mark said that em-8er wasnt even going to have "raids", and if thats the case what the hell are you guys even talking about this for? There is no debate to be had if em-8er isnt even going to have raids in the first place?

Not speaking for anyone else but in my case I read 'Instance' the same as 'a particular task within the open world war effort' an so, everything discussed so far will naturally apply.
Something like a 'pocket'. Participation is SOME world events has to be capped by generating simultaneous points of interest, otherwise it's going to be impossible to control its difficulty.

 

[BunnyHunny]

That's what I want to see, that's what 'hard content' truly means. A 20-man you do with just 5 people isn't hard content,

I love hard content. Believe me.
I want hard content. And skill should matter.
But there is one problem.

Content has to be somewhat accessible to the player base.
If content is hard for the top 10%, it is probably impossible for the bottom 90%.
As soon as content becomes easy enough for the top 30%, the top 10% might already get bored a bit, unless they can choose to enter the instance with fewer players, adding some extra challenge to it.

There have to be several different instances (with different difficulties), or several different difficulties for the same instance, in order to offer challenging content for a broader player base.

it's just that playerbase is mostly composed of bads because the game promotes that way of play and gives not enough incentives to try otherwise. Can't really blame players for that. I'd love to see that change for once.

While the developer can indeed influence the way gamers think, it is still much about the players themselves.
Many people are lazy, lack the intelligence, the understanding, or maybe the coordination, required to become skilled.
In the end it always comes down to the player being willing (and able) to become good, or not.
The developer can try to make players want to, but it is the player's decision after all.

While FF failed to introduce players to teamplay, early on, there were many reasons for it at max lvl (best in slot items).
So there was an excuse for being new to teamplay and unskilled for those who just reached max lvl, but not for those who had played the content for months or years.

People had many reasons to have learned to play properly.
After such a long time, i would not expect people to try and improve as much as they can, or to play all content perfectly, but to roflstomp the content in boredom as soon as they reach a certain level of skill.
But damn they even sucked at HC missions after years of playing the game.
At that point, it is not the developer's fault anymore.

On another note, I'd love support roles to be valuable.

That was one of my favorite things about 1.3 and early 1.6.
Support classes were very useful and important. Be it a good dragonfly in Warfront, Raptors and Electrons in Kanaloa, or Dragonfly and Mammoth in DoD. Later they sadly became irrelevant.

That was one of my favorite things about WoW as well.
There was a requirement for healer and tank, the platoon setup had to be thought through (also a skill). A good tank/healer could make a massive difference and allow the damage dealers to perform better than they usually could. They had important roles.

Being good isn't just aiming faster and precisely.

When it comes to intelligence (creating a proper setup and using abilities in a smart way) being involved in being good, it seems that most people are simply not.
I have had multiple discussions about skill in FF and quite some guys claimed that there is no skill involved in building a setup and using abilities properly.
The only skills they cared about was aim and movement, which ironically were the only things they were good at.