Here's a vote for changes to Omniframes

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punkbuzter#6186

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#1
So I've been bothered with the design of current models for a couple days and decided to make it a thread on its own, so it doesn't get lost.

There's a slight problem with current design in the way that an Omniframe covers a lot of the character behind the frames graphical design. Too much IMHO. While skins are essential for sales, you literally cover an already paid skin with another you paid for, skin on skin, the question is how much of your character do you want to see, and how much Omniframe is too much?
I get that it's a mech-game, but I don't get why anyone would buy a skin that they're never gonna see unless they play a light-frame build... I'd say that's forced playstyle if one cares about their skins.

Tho, already at the current Light Frame we can see our character's feet, legs, arms, and shoulders are completely covered behind plating, and partially both the front and back too... So already there we're now covering up well over 60% of what a player paid for.
Sure, people has been arguing that you won't be in a frame all the time but what they forget is that most people will either be in the battlefield using a frame, or in a UI while crafting, managing inventory, or in a turret seat, completely blocking the view of your character... So 99% of the time you won't be able to see your characters actual paid skin unless you only play a Light Frame, just wondering if anyone thought of this when making the design choices.
I hate the idea of having to sacrifice a functionality or an entire playstyle just because I want to enjoy what I spend my money on, but I'm willing to somewhat break out of my stubborn self with an idea I just came up with below.



A completely new design for the Light Frame tier, and put current tiers up a notch.
That way we have more alternatives that doesn't spit on your money spent on character skins, and we get a 4th frame design that actually shows off your character, a speedy and flexible scout/crit build utilizing handheld firearms.

Let me refer to an example of Planetside 2...

Light Frame: Ghost (this would be a completely new design)
Acting as the ghost class, using snipers, SMG's, hack tools, stealth, and aiding the party as a support role.

Medium Frame: Assault (this would act as the new Light Frame)
Acting as the assault class capable of flight and rapid fire, the stormtrooper of the tiers, the fast-attack role.

Heavy Frame: Tanker (this would act as the new Medium Frame)
Acting as the heavy class, the mainstream frame for taking the most hits, the party-buff role.

Ultra Frame: MAX (this would act as the new Heavy Frame)
Acting as the Max class, meant to take down the toughest of enemies, the sorcerer of the party, the nuker role.


Bonus Action:
I'd also urge to make current frame designs more slick, also to reveal more of your actual character but most importantly not to cover too much of your screen when in 3rd person, yet not at the cost of functionality.

That's the end of my turn.
 
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Aug 9, 2018
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#2
Feel free to refine my understanding of what youre saying but I want to comment so correct me if I'm wrong.

The light frame barely has any armor pieces. You'll see most of your skins in your armor.
The medium frame covers a bit more and the heavy covers even more. Each frame offers a level of protection vs mobility. Are you tank, dps or glass cannon...?
Your character can completely detach from from your frames when you're in the cities and player bases. This allows your skins to be shown the most when you're in an area youre interacting with players, npcs and stations. However, you don't want to explore the world unarmed.
You will also be able to customize your frames though I'm not sure how much yet.

Also a redesign of the medium frame will happen to better suit the theme of Em-8er but right now it might be all we have before the KS.
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#3
Feel free to refine my understanding of what youre saying but I want to comment so correct me if I'm wrong.

The light frame barely has any armor pieces. You'll see most of your skins in your armor.
The medium frame covers a bit more and the heavy covers even more. Each frame offers a level of protection vs mobility. Are you tank, dps or glass cannon...?
Your character can completely detach from from your frames when you're in the cities and player bases. This allows your skins to be shown the most when you're in an area youre interacting with players, npcs and stations. However, you don't want to explore the world unarmed.
You will also be able to customize your frames though I'm not sure how much yet.

Also a redesign of the medium frame will happen to better suit the theme of Em-8er but right now it might be all we have before the KS.
You'll have to excuse my ungodly GIMP skills, but here is my concern.
 

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punkbuzter#6186

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#4
And yes, I get it, you'll spend time in bases, vehicles, the mothership etc... But what am I doing in these bases or vehicles? I'm probably doing something that's gonna have a UI infront of my character, and thus I don't get to appreciate the skin I bought anyway.
So in bases I don't get to see my paid stuff cuz of UI, and in battle I don't get to see it cuz of Omniframes...

When I'm playing other games I get to see the stuff I paid for, mostly because it's usually just 1 layer of fashion right, something that replaces the armor and thus I get to see it.
But in Em8ER I won't, I just get to see 1 layer and that's the Omniframe, the second layer which is the characters skin gets hidden underneath the frame somewhere.
 

ChAzZ_NuT

Kaiju Slayer
Kaiju Slayer
Jan 22, 2017
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194
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#5
Hello Zingo, just going to chuck in my two cents! I need to make more posts like these xD Great timing too, as the light-frame may be being worked on this August!

So the problem you have is that; The Player Skins which we are paying for, should in fact be more presentable through our frames. And that the Omniframes cover up too much of the Player Skin.

So initially I'd agree with you, it makes sense that anybody would want to flaunt the very thing they have been putting their money towards. Otherwise, what is the point?

Well, actually it's a little bit more complicated than that, because although we are in fact funding the project via these skins. The project itself is what the funding is going towards, and the Player Skins are not the only skins that we are getting (albeit the majority currently). There are a bunch of other goodies involved in the funding too, not to mention as well as the game itself.

It definitely highlights another question to me though, which would be... what will the out-of-frame gameplay look and feel like anyway? It'd be great to get some more of Marks insight into this.

Personally, I'd really like to see how the three frames look, depicted in the concept art. When they have been white-boxed and pushed into the game, before trying to make adjustments. Thanks Zingo!


 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#6
Hello Zingo, just going to chuck in my two cents! I need to make more posts like these xD Great timing too, as the light-frame may be being worked on this August!

So the problem you have is that; The Player Skins which we are paying for, should in fact be more presentable through our frames. And that the Omniframes cover up too much of the Player Skin.

So initially I'd agree with you, it makes sense that anybody would want to flaunt the very thing they have been putting their money towards. Otherwise, what is the point?

Well, actually it's a little bit more complicated than that, because although we are in fact funding the project via these skins. The project itself is what the funding is going towards, and the Player Skins are not the only skins that we are getting (albeit the majority currently). There are a bunch of other goodies involved in the funding too, not to mention as well as the game itself.

It definitely highlights another question to me though, which would be... what will the out-of-frame gameplay look and feel like anyway? It'd be great to get some more of Marks insight into this.

Personally, I'd really like to see how the three frames look, depicted in the concept art. When they have been white-boxed and pushed into the game, before trying to make adjustments. Thanks Zingo!
Yes, that is it.
I agree that mechs are nice, I don't want them removed...
I actually want more, I suggested an entirely new frame that'd be more revealing than the current Light Frame. Don't know if you missed my previous post where I edited out the actual Light Frame and exposed just the areas where a paid skin would be the most visible, which imho is not enough.

With a 4th frame added and the current Light Frame slightly edited we could actually make the visual appeal 50/50, both eye candy and badass frames, the best of both worlds. Would it not be cool?
 

ChAzZ_NuT

Kaiju Slayer
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Jan 22, 2017
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#7
Yes, that is it.
I agree that mechs are nice, I don't want them removed...
I actually want more, I suggested an entirely new frame that'd be more revealing than the current Light Frame. Don't know if you missed my previous post where I edited out the actual Light Frame and exposed just the areas where a paid skin would be the most visible, which imho is not enough.

With a 4th frame added and the current Light Frame slightly edited we could actually make the visual appeal 50/50, both eye candy and badass frames, the best of both worlds. Would it not be cool?
I am not sure about the necessity or implications of adding an additional frame or armour. And another thing to consider is the structure, protection and purpose of an omni-frame.

I recall Mark talking about there being a way in which Gatestriders can in fact flick between a hard shield mode and a more open cockpit style of aesthetic... It's actually hard to tell with the current concept art, how much of that torso portion of the player will in fact be displayable and if our skins will be what is displayed beneath when changing between these aesthetics.

Would be cool if we could get that cleared up, with a more in-depth dissection of how that'll work.

For example; Clicks a button, then a front section of the heavy frame flaps down and presents the pilot in his edgy wizard hat and rubber ducky underwear.
 
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punkbuzter#6186

Guest
#8
I am not sure about the necessity or implications of adding an additional frame or armour. And another thing to consider is the structure, protection and purpose of an omni-frame.

I recall Mark talking about there being a way in which Gatestriders can in fact flick between a hard shield mode and a more open cockpit style of aesthetic... It's actually hard to tell with the current concept art, how much of that torso portion of the player will in fact be displayable and if our skins will be what is displayed beneath when changing between these aesthetics.

Would be cool if we could get that cleared up, with a more in-depth dissection of how that'll work.

For example; Clicks a button, then a front section of the heavy frame flaps down and presents the pilot in his edgy wizard hat and rubber ducky underwear.
Well, Planetside 2 has 4 classes and it's a perfect balance that breaks the golden trident of generic RPG's (tank, healer, dps), plus, more skins to sell... It's a win-win for both customer and developer.

I'm not just talking about the torso, the Feli for example has a pair of very nice and detailed robot feet and metal claws for toe nails... But if her entire body's gonna be in that frame I rly see no point in buying skins other than OmniFrame skins. It becomes a waste of money.

Stealth and flexibility are both defensive too. I hear people argue that skimpy outfits is immersionbreaking but I wonder if they every tried swinging a sword in full metal armor before they made that claim...
I'd argue that mobility is a much greater defense as you can avoid damage completely with speed.
 

Mahdi

Firstclaimer
Jul 26, 2016
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#9
With your waste of money comment coming across as an all encompassing generic statement I just want to clear a partial point up. Character skins are not just for frame use. There will be areas where players are walking around and no frames will be present. This is the focal point of character skins.
 
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Pandagnome

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#10
You know i like the look of the G-suit and from what is shown on the roadmap human male/female will be ingame this month if all goes to plan!
1658535809586.jpeg
Could it be we are able to finally run around and hop in and out of our meks?
 

lkw#0593

Omega Founder
Jun 9, 2020
19
55
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#11
Some thoughts

This is one of the reasons I'd like to see more frame skins (the largest reason is that I have enough player skins to choose from, but everything else is lacking)

The reason the frames are called light/medium/heavy instead of class names is because they are intended to be classless within what you can put on them.

I'd expect some skins to be more revealing, and some to be less.

Warframe has the ability to play as your operator outside your frame with different abilities. Could be interesting to see something like that in Em8ER.

I wonder how much you would end up with UI covering your screen outside a frame. I don't see a way to do inventory and crafting without UI; however, Grummz has also talked about wanting to have stuff done in world. The games he cited (e.g. factorio) have menus, but still have a large in world component which requires the player to walk around.
There has been talk about adding more social/rp gameplay later in development as an expansion, which I'd assume you can use the player skin for.
We have player claimstake maps on the roadmap and it will be interesting to see what happens there.

All skins are a bit specific to gameplay, e.g. a heavy skin doesn't do much for someone that plays light frames. A thumpr skin may not be as useful for someone who mostly plays trucking. A game trying to (long term) be as flexible as this with different hardware and different ways of playing is going to have this issue.
 

Sy

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Nov 16, 2018
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#12

Pandagnome

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#13
Warframe has the ability to play as your operator outside your frame with different abilities. Could be interesting to see something like that in Em8ER.
I could imagine pilots doing this with more advanced G-suits. This way you could play in an alternative way the choice of the player is to decide Mek or out of Mek and in most cases Mek is going to be incredibly useful for survival.

I wonder how much you would end up with UI covering your screen outside a frame. I don't see a way to do inventory and crafting without UI; however, Grummz has also talked about wanting to have stuff done in world.
In fallout i like how you could check the device where pip boy would show stats etc


- I step out of my frame in bases and Home
I'd really like to be able to hop in or out of my Frame in most places the risk is for the player to decide unless your Mek was too big to get somewhere, or Meks cannot function due to some generator causing Meks to stop working etc etc
 
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ChAzZ_NuT

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Jan 22, 2017
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#14
I'm not just talking about the torso, the Feli for example has a pair of very nice and detailed robot feet and metal claws for toe nails... But if her entire body's gonna be in that frame I rly see no point in buying skins other than OmniFrame skins. It becomes a waste of money.
So are the Player skins a waste of money? Well this raises many questions;

Do we even want to see our Player skins when we are inside of our frames?
It would be cool yeah, but I think the aesthetic of the frame is more important.

If we do, then what would we want that to look like?
- Well, that depends on the frame, as you go up in weight... you'd likely see more skin in the lighter frames in comparison to the heavier ones.
- You also have to consider factors such as skin-overlapping, the more of the Player skin that is allowed to be visible with all of it's intricacies, may overcomplicate the frames and make them look messy or draw away or undermine the aesthetic of the frame itself.
- You mentioned the addition of a lighter frame, are you proposing something such as an exo-skeleton frame? Because THAT would be a way to almost fully reveal your Player skin, although I'd doubt its effectiveness on the battlefield up against the Tsi-hu.
- It would be great to see the difference between the hard-shield and open-cockpit modes.


How much time will we spend outside of our frames?
- I don't know what the vision is, in regards to the out-of-frame social aspect of the game. I don't know how easily we will be able to hop in and out of frames... i don't know what H.O.M.E will be like or how it'll work. I can't really comment on this because it's unclear to me, but it could play a huge part in answering the primary question here.

Will we be able to use these skins, in the Vertical Slice or the Kickstarter?
- I don't know when the skins will be available to use, or if they'll be a part of the Demo Game Loop.


So in conclusion, personally I think it would be great if we could get some more clarification from Grummz. What the vision is for the gameplay that'll allow us to show off these skins?

Grummz has also stated that he recognized, that people have been asking for more of the other pillars of the project. So if the content we are receiving for our funding shifts, this may alter opinions...

I'd personally like to see an equal amount of Player AND MEK/Other skins, There is undeniably a heavy lean towards the former. I feel that the motivation for fundraising could be a little more dynamic.

I'm not sure how well those MEK skins perform in terms of income for funding the project, so despite my wanting to see more of the latter. I'd understand if it drastically affected the upkeep of the project in the long run.


I wouldn't really call this thread a VOTE, so to speak... more of an open discussion. So you might want to change your title for this thread.
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#16
With your waste of money comment coming across as an all encompassing generic statement I just want to clear a partial point up. Character skins are not just for frame use. There will be areas where players are walking around and no frames will be present. This is the focal point of character skins.
It's a suggestion, not a statement. Since I've seen so many titles been ruined for the past two decades because of this model I figured it's about time to speak up since a promise has not yet been made to the vast majority.
Since it's the company's first product, a crowd funded project, with a pretty niche setting, I'd say they're miles better off showing the world what they're capable off before they go into locked gardens such as World of Warcraft.

Remember, Blizzard made its name from years of making multiple good games, they didn't come out of the blue because a former known developer started his own company. Why does everyone seem to think Crixa will make billions just because they have Grummz?
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#17
Some thoughts

This is one of the reasons I'd like to see more frame skins (the largest reason is that I have enough player skins to choose from, but everything else is lacking)

The reason the frames are called light/medium/heavy instead of class names is because they are intended to be classless within what you can put on them.

I'd expect some skins to be more revealing, and some to be less.

Warframe has the ability to play as your operator outside your frame with different abilities. Could be interesting to see something like that in Em8ER.

I wonder how much you would end up with UI covering your screen outside a frame. I don't see a way to do inventory and crafting without UI; however, Grummz has also talked about wanting to have stuff done in world. The games he cited (e.g. factorio) have menus, but still have a large in world component which requires the player to walk around.
There has been talk about adding more social/rp gameplay later in development as an expansion, which I'd assume you can use the player skin for.
We have player claimstake maps on the roadmap and it will be interesting to see what happens there.

All skins are a bit specific to gameplay, e.g. a heavy skin doesn't do much for someone that plays light frames. A thumpr skin may not be as useful for someone who mostly plays trucking. A game trying to (long term) be as flexible as this with different hardware and different ways of playing is going to have this issue.
Well, 4 suits is better than 3 right? More options, more skins, more money for Crixa, it's a win-win for everyone :)

All I know is that Grummz has mentioned he wanted Em8er to be more like Planetside 2, and they have 4 styles of play, and you can have a different setup for all of them, including the looks easily swapped as profiles.
You don't see your character while in their vehicles, except for the harasser, but that doesn't hurt much since most of your gametime will be spent outside vehicles, if you want the fast exp and nanites ofc. Grummz says you can walk in his vehicles, and that's great, but we ain't all gonna sit in vehicles, most of us will probably be out there fighting, and that's where I expect to show off my "transmog", as Asmongold would call it. But if you can't see your character's various skins under the frames, what's the point of buying them, as someone who will probably spend 90% of his time fighting?
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#18
So are the Player skins a waste of money? Well this raises many questions;

Do we even want to see our Player skins when we are inside of our frames?
It would be cool yeah, but I think the aesthetic of the frame is more important.

If we do, then what would we want that to look like?
- Well, that depends on the frame, as you go up in weight... you'd likely see more skin in the lighter frames in comparison to the heavier ones.
- You also have to consider factors such as skin-overlapping, the more of the Player skin that is allowed to be visible with all of it's intricacies, may overcomplicate the frames and make them look messy or draw away or undermine the aesthetic of the frame itself.
- You mentioned the addition of a lighter frame, are you proposing something such as an exo-skeleton frame? Because THAT would be a way to almost fully reveal your Player skin, although I'd doubt its effectiveness on the battlefield up against the Tsi-hu.
- It would be great to see the difference between the hard-shield and open-cockpit modes.


How much time will we spend outside of our frames?
- I don't know what the vision is, in regards to the out-of-frame social aspect of the game. I don't know how easily we will be able to hop in and out of frames... i don't know what H.O.M.E will be like or how it'll work. I can't really comment on this because it's unclear to me, but it could play a huge part in answering the primary question here.

Will we be able to use these skins, in the Vertical Slice or the Kickstarter?
- I don't know when the skins will be available to use, or if they'll be a part of the Demo Game Loop.


So in conclusion, personally I think it would be great if we could get some more clarification from Grummz. What the vision is for the gameplay that'll allow us to show off these skins?

Grummz has also stated that he recognized, that people have been asking for more of the other pillars of the project. So if the content we are receiving for our funding shifts, this may alter opinions...

I'd personally like to see an equal amount of Player AND MEKA/Other skins, There is undeniably a heavy lean towards the former. I feel that the motivation for fundraising could be a little dynamic.

I'm not sure how well those MEKA skins perform in terms of income for funding the project, so despite my wanting to see more of the latter. I'd understand if it drastically affected the upkeep of the project in the long run.


I wouldn't really call this thread a VOTE, so to speak... more of an open discussion. So you might want to change your title for this thread.

Yeah, we'd see more of the character the lighter the frame is, but current "Light Frame" literally covers everything but your ass and face, it's full metal plate already... I showed you the stripdown of the Light Frame earlier, and naturally yes the heavier the frame the more plate, I agree.
That's why I'm suggesting a stealth frame where flexibility and speed is most important, getting rid of the plating from the Light Frame where one can also appreciate the character's various paid skins.

I'm not asking to spend more time outside the frames, I'm just asking for frames not to cover up what we pay for.


It's my vote, I wanted to hear the counter arguments and/or ideas to see if ppl like my thing, especially with the 4th frame, but it's quickly derailing so idk.
 
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punkbuzter#6186

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#19
I think all of my skin comments on the other thread have been covered by earlier posters to this thread:

https://forums.em8er.com/threads/new-em-8er-build-visual-overhaul-7-7-2022.2271/page-3#post-68501

- I step out of my frame in bases and Home
- I can pick any frame I want, including some which are more revealing to the pilot skin (e.g. more Firefall-style)
- I don't have to pay double (pilot+frame skins) to look good when fighting
This aint' about how you'd play or when you'd be out of your frame... It's about how much of your paid character skins you'd want to see within the frame itself for the various tiers, and what you'd think of the new idea, a Stealth tier much like the Cloaker in Planetside 2 where your character's skins would be more presentable, less weighted, and greater speed/mobility.
 

Pandagnome

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#20
Why does everyone seem to think Crixa will make billions just because they have Grummz?
I don't know about everyone, and think it is going to take some dedicated planning, hard work and an effective team to make it all happen plus the cash too!

we ain't all gonna sit in vehicles, most of us will probably be out there fighting
if you can't see your character's various skins under the frames, what's the point of buying them, as someone who will probably spend 90% of his time fighting?
In the light frame you would most likely see the most or if your out of a frame in the cool G-suit.
Does seem logical that the G-suit is our first form of protection and how we can develop that although it will have its pros and cons just like each frame would i am sure.

Example:
[GS-suit] Standard - Everyone would start with this necessary for a better survival chance.
[GA-suit Advanced] - Improved suit tech means better efficiency, slots and modications
[GSR -Spec Reaper] - Gives users full capability of the suit unlocking its potential

What if these suits can be researched with the different resources types mixtures to develop the G-suits.
If for example your tech level is lowered due to a previous attack G-suits would still be valid.

Meks are your best survival but if you love playing out of your Mek too i'd like to see suit options too

I am going to disagree because some may love to go in vehicles and play more of a logistic role with big space trucks. Others may want to be on their bikes and play speedy bike medics etc.

@Grummz mentioned of Bard/dancer role if i remember right so there is more things to do than just combat surely?