Health, Armor, and Shields (and damage types)

EvilKitten

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Jul 26, 2016
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#1
First off there are no "immunities", there is nothing that cannot destroy a target eventually. The following is a system designed to simulate somewhat realistic settings while preventing any one persona from being completely invulnerable to anything.

Health

Health, represented as red is a measure of basic life force or consciousness. All characters should have a base health (say 1000, but modable). There are no methods of reducing damage to health via mods, instead players can utilize shields and armor to prevent damage from being passed through to the health pool. Base health regenerates at a constant rate of 5% per minute while in combat, and 1% per second while out of combat (again this can be modded).

Thermal (fire/ice) damage impacts health at an increased ratio and is the only damage type to affect health differently. All other damage types are 1:1 ratio. However as thermal damage tends to be lower than piercing damage it is much less effective when blocked by armor and shields.

If anyone's health pool drops to 0 they are rendered unconscious. While unconscious a friendly unit can apply a stimulant into the downed allies bloodstream which will bring them back to consciousness. Failure to do so within a certain amount of time may potentially kill the unconscious person (player or Tsihu). If an enemy gets in range of an unconscious target they have the option to either kill them or if not in combat, capture them. Killing them removes them from the field and gives you a small sum of resources taken from their body/frame. Capturing can potentially generate a larger sum of resources or currencies if traded with the enemy faction. Note that an enemy can also capture you and ransom you back to your parent corporation, they will always pay the fee but will pass the cost on to you.


Armor

Armor, represented as yellow, is its own point pool based on a multiplier of the health pool. Armor is the first line of defense protecting your health and is the more difficult to burn through. Armor is represented as a resistance %age, the base being 25%. The armor "HP" pool is the percentage as a multiplier of health, the base being 25xHP (25,000). When mathematically determining damage, all incoming damage is split based on the resistance %age of your armor. So a player with 50% armor will have 50% of incoming damage applied to the armor pool, and 50% of the damage applied to the health pool. However, as the armor pool drops so too does the resistance. If using the base armor the pool were to drop to 25,000 points then your armor would only protect you 25k/50k*50% = 25%. Once the armor pool is gone it will no longer provide any protection of your health pool. Because of this even a player who starts out with a theoretical 100% armor (boss fights) can eventually be taken down as their armor becomes less effective over time.

Armor itself does not regenerate, however there are a few high end abilities, items and special drops from enemies (their own items) which uses nano technology to restore armor by a fixed percentage (or flat sum depending).


Concussive (explosive/sonic) damage reacts differently to armor by reducing the percentage of damage that armor blocks by a certain amount (for the sake of this post we will say 20%). That means if a target has 50% armor and they take 100 damage, instead of 50 damage being passed on to the health pool, 60 points of damage would instead (40% armor instead of 50%) while the remaining 40 would go to armor. Because the armor pool is taking less than normal damage it will be reduced at a slower rate. Because concussive damage will typically be lower than other types they will be weak against shields so you will want to use concussive weapons/abilities when a targets shields are low.

Nanite (or Nanobot or simply Nano) damage like Thermal to HP does extra damage to an armors health pool, causing it to be reduced in effectiveness at a higher rate than normal. It does not however effect shields or health at a different rate and so again with less damage than piercing is somewhat of a nitch damage type. Nano damage is only found in some abilities and not as a weapon damage type by players (but possibly Tsihu weapons?).

Shields

Shields, represented traditionally as cyan are a second layer of protection which prevents someone from damaging their targets health pool. Unlike armor, the shield is not based on a resistance, rather the total shields pool determines the percentage of damage passed through. All targets should have a modable base shield strength (say 1000 points). The amount of damage absorbed by the shield is a direct ratio of shield strength to max shield strength. Thus a full shield will always block 100% of the first incoming damage. As such it is impossible to kill a target in a single shot. But shields do not have the pool size of armor and as such are much easier to take down. at 500/1000 points a shield only protects against 50% damage and so on. Unlike armor however shields do regenerate, at an unmodded rate of 1% per second. Shields are reasonably easy to restore unlike armor and the ablities and items that do so will be more common and do a higher %age repair.

Photon damage (lasers) reacts to shields similarly as concussive damage does to armor. As such even a shield at 100% strength will still pass on some photon damage to armor and health. However also like concussive, electrical damage will always be lower than standard piercing (bullets, blades) damage so if a target has both shields and armor it will pass through more damage but overall will not be as effective.

Electrical damage is similar to Nanite damage for armor. Tasers, shock rounds or electrical discharges do bonus damage versus shields.

Damage Types Summary

Piercing (Bullets, Blades): Standard damage, no bonuses or weaknesses
Thermal (Fire/Ice): Reduced base damage, bonus vs HP
Thermal (Plasma): Bonus damage vs everything, but with extreme range and ammo tradeoffs (see my mods thread)
Concussive (Explosive/Sonic/Impact): Reduced base damage, armor bypass
Nano: Reduced base damage, bonus vs Armor
Shock (Electrical): Reduced base damage, bonus vs Shields
Photon (Laser): Reduced base damage, shield bypass

Note that falling damage is considered high impact or concussive damage, such damage can also be incurred by running/flying into terrain objects at high speeds. As this is not a weapon damage there is no "reduced base damage" and as such can seriously hurt a targets health pools. This can be potentially used to great effect by knocking targets off of ledges or using a shock wave to slam a target into a rock or other object for additional armor bypassing damage. Very large units like THMPR's or some super animals and Tsihu are immune to such things however due to their tremendous mass.

Taking Down Targets

Because of the multiple layers of effective damage reduction possible, it can be potentially difficult to take down a target while solo. Animal type mobs will often have armor, but not shields. This makes them particularly susceptible to concussive, nano, or fire type damages. Low ranking Tsihu may have armor or shields so special damage types will also work well on them. But any target with both armor and shields is actually not particularly weak against either damage type as they have dual defenses. Many high ranking Tsihu and all reapers will sport both defense types in varying amounts. The best solution to taking down these targets is to either have a wide variety of damage types at your disposal, or to have multiple players each focusing on one or two damage types to take down their defenses faster.

Please note that all numbers are arbitrary and used for ease of explanations, devs can use whatever numbers will best retain balance.
 
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Bl4ckhunter

Active Member
Jul 26, 2016
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#3
Perhaps plasma and ice need a bit more to it than that, i'd suggest reduced base damage and on dealing total damage over 60% of shield/armor (shields for plasma and armor for ice) in x seconds shields/armor are destroyed.
 
Aug 14, 2016
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#5
Did you account for hybrid damage types? Because they do exist in real life and smart people used them to their advantage all the time.

For example, high energy bombs are often both thermal and concussive. EMP bombs are both concussive and magnetic. And nukes are thermal, concussive, electromagnetic, and radioactive.
 
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EvilKitten

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Jul 26, 2016
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#6
Did you account for hybrid damage types? Because they do exist in real life and smart people used them to their advantage all the time.

For example, high energy bombs are often both thermal and concussive. EMP bombs are both concussive and magnetic. And nukes are thermal, concussive, electromagnetic, and radioactive.
It is possible for multiple damage types with this setup if it is based on a percentage of your total damage (IE weapon with 20% explosive damage, 80% piercing damage) but I am not really sure if I would want to go that route.

I am a bit iffy with your examples :p Almost all Bomb's utilize a massive shockwave as the main method of damage, even Thermobaric weapons while utilizing heat to produce the shockwave are not using heat as the main method of applying damage.

Inversely EMP bombs do not utilize a standard shockwave at all, in fact the most efficient EMP weapons are used outside of the atmosphere where the energy is unable to be converted into a shockwave. And yes a Nuke does contain both thermal concussive and radioactive (only EMP as said before in the absence of atmosphere) but the main blast damage is in fact concussive. Actually a nuke is simply a super high powered conventional weapon that utilizes nuclear energy to generate. Radioactive fallout is a byproduct and while very harmful, tends to take time (years sometimes) for that damage to materialize.

While I could see radiation being used as an environmental damage type (slows or stops HP regen to make the map/encounter more difficult), the amount of radiation needed to outright kill a person fast enough to make it combat viable is actually quite large and inefficient to weaponize which is why I didn't list it.

EDIT: Just to clarify, yes a nuclear weapon does generate a tremendous amount of heat, however most of that heat is radiated upwards not outwards and the heat/fires left behind are a byproduct, not the main damaging function. The range at which the heat from a nuke makes it difficult to approach the aftersite is much much smaller than the range of damage caused by the resulting shock wave. In spite of a nukes additional properties over conventional weapons, its damage component is still concussive.

Whoops, thanks!
 
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Bl4ckhunter

Active Member
Jul 26, 2016
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#7
I am a bit iffy with your examples :p Almost all Bomb's utilize a massive shockwave as the main method of damage, even Thermobaric weapons while utilizing heat to produce the shockwave are not themselves based on the heat involved.
Oh it can get WAAY more creative than that, there's all sorts of stuff out there, not long ago i've appened upon an article about a chlorine trifluoride spill which reportedly burned it's way clean throught a feet of concrete and two feet of underlying ground or something.
 

EvilKitten

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Jul 26, 2016
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#8
I think the best example I can think of for multiple damage types would be today's standard grenade. It triggers a standard blast wave up close but also utilizes the grenade casing to generate shrapnel, thus there would be both concussive and piercing damage.

Oh it can get WAAY more creative than that, there's all sorts of stuff out there, not long ago i've appened upon an article about a chlorine trifluoride spill which reportedly burned it's way clean throught a feet of concrete and two feet of underlying ground or something.
How long did it take to accomplish this?

EDIT: And I don't want to make it seem like I hate the idea of combining multiple damage types, I am simply concerned that it might convolute things enough to render it difficult to determine at a glance what a weapon is good for. For the most part I feel it might be best to keep things simple.
 
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NightStroke

Base Commander
Base Commander
Jul 26, 2016
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#9
Id really have a system like this that affects gameplay beyond simple stats and variable multipliers based on what type of damage is done. That doesn't result in fun, it just adds thought and work to an encounter that still works the same way. It's arbitrary and doesn't force the player to adapt gameplay-wise but gear wise. Especially since elements have effects associated with their damage(fire does DoT, electricity chains damage, frost snares/freezes, etc), I don't want to have to switch out of gear I enjoy to just approach a certain enemy type more effectively. Rather I'd want to see something like this:

If an enemy moves extremely fast and dodged a lot, I'd want to take AoE frost abilities to approach the scenario with the most ease. If I have the skill to take the enemy down without changing my kit, I should be able to be as effective as an AoE frost user with whatever my loadout consists of.

Scenario 2:
Let's say a certain mob type always appears in swarms with low health. Ideally I'd take fire abilities and weapons so I could just hose down the swarm with accelerant and ignite for DoT, but I should still be able to be effective if I choose to take poison abilities that make targets more vulnerable to damage. Stuff like that.

If we introduce a system with damage types and different forms of health, I really hope that we don't limit ourselves to arbitrary numbers and resistances and choose to change the gameplay as well.
 
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EvilKitten

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Jul 26, 2016
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#10
EDIT: I think there needs to be a component of statistical variation, and mechanical variation to every weapon combo and ability type. As it relates to this particular thread I am only dealing with numerical systems of health and protection so the damages listed here are focused only on how they relate to that. In my mod topic I mention a variety of mechanical differences (stuns, knockbacks etc) to these same damage types.
 
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NightStroke

Base Commander
Base Commander
Jul 26, 2016
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#11
@EvilKitten

I'm saying there should be a difference between weapon styles and damage types, but not one that is exclusively arbitrary and statistical without changing the way I shoot things. I want strategic and tactical encounters, and simply changing some variable in a loadout without changing how I have to approach scenarios in regards to gameplay isn't "strategic" at all.
 
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Luisedgm

Deepscanner
Jul 27, 2016
103
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#12
What about this?

Kinect: any kind of physical damage (including guns and explosions), subtypes:
-Blunt: hammers and explosions
-Pierce: guns, piercing weapons and fragments
-Slash: blades in general
-Sonic: vibrations, shockwaves

Energy: any kind of damage that doesn't involve matter
-Heat: fire or hot temperatures, plasma weapons
-Cryo: ice or cold temperatures, freezing attacks
-Electric: electrical currents, static
-Light: light beams, lasers

Hazard: other types of damage
-Bio: affects the pilot unless the mecha can isolate him completely
-Chemical: acid and dangerous corrosive substances
-Radiation: can affect both the pilot and the mecha electric systems
-???: alien secret weapon
 
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Bl4ckhunter

Active Member
Jul 26, 2016
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#13
How long did it take to accomplish this?
Not much i think, anyways it's impossible to put out as it causes most inert compounds to combust so once you're on fire you'd stay on fire indefinitely until it's completely burnt out, on a side note on contact with water it explodes and releases hydrogen fluoride, wich is known to melt down even ceramic plates.

that aside the more i think about it the more it seems like an unnecessary mess, perhaps having weapons with unique stats rather than an overarching elemental sistem might be better and cut down on the statistical diffences
 
Aug 14, 2016
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#14
It is possible for multiple damage types with this setup if it is based on a percentage of your total damage (IE weapon with 20% explosive damage, 80% piercing damage) but I am not really sure if I would want to go that route.

I am a bit iffy with your examples :p Almost all Bomb's utilize a massive shockwave as the main method of damage, even Thermobaric weapons while utilizing heat to produce the shockwave are not using heat as the main method of applying damage.

Inversely EMP bombs do not utilize a standard shockwave at all, in fact the most efficient EMP weapons are used outside of the atmosphere where the energy is unable to be converted into a shockwave. And yes a Nuke does contain both thermal concussive and radioactive (only EMP as said before in the absence of atmosphere) but the main blast damage is in fact concussive. Actually a nuke is simply a super high powered conventional weapon that utilizes nuclear energy to generate. Radioactive fallout is a byproduct and while very harmful, tends to take time (years sometimes) for that damage to materialize.

While I could see radiation being used as an environmental damage type (slows or stops HP regen to make the map/encounter more difficult), the amount of radiation needed to outright kill a person fast enough to make it combat viable is actually quite large and inefficient to weaponize which is why I didn't list it.

EDIT: Just to clarify, yes a nuclear weapon does generate a tremendous amount of heat, however most of that heat is radiated upwards not outwards and the heat/fires left behind are a byproduct, not the main damaging function. The range at which the heat from a nuke makes it difficult to approach the aftersite is much much smaller than the range of damage caused by the resulting shock wave. In spite of a nukes additional properties over conventional weapons, its damage component is still concussive.
Yes, but I was thinking more on lines of things like sniper rifles that fire super-sonic rounds. They do both kinetic damage to have them punch through armor as well as thermal damage to as the armor, and sometimes round itself when hitting really think armor, melts the spraying molten metal on the things behind the armor. Because I like to play as anti-tank player, it is the reason why my main was Nighthawk before the nerfed the hell out of the frame in FireFall.
For example
 
#15
Perhaps plasma and ice need a bit more to it than that, i'd suggest reduced base damage and on dealing total damage over 60% of shield/armor (shields for plasma and armor for ice) in x seconds shields/armor are destroyed.
Also, ice and electricity could scramble systems, make the HUD and targeting all fuzzy, if frames or similar mobs are exposed to it. Servos could freeze up, slowing movement.
 
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EvilKitten

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Jul 26, 2016
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#16
In my mod thread (linked in OP) I have shock rounds having an interrupt ability on other players abilities. The beam version would incur a slow effect (shock damage was always intended as a support/crowd control type damage). Concussive damage was intended to knock people around, throwing off their aim, making it very useful against snipers or other accuracy based weapons. Thermal damage is not intended to have a direct effect when used against protected targets, but when firing at the ground they would leave a medium duration AoE on the ground which for ice could cause anyone moving across the surface to slip and fall, or for exothermic reactions to earn extra DoT from the fire (NPC's won't purposely step into a fire area, making the fire ammo a useful means of herding or otherwise stopping NPC's from getting too close) The other damage types I had no alternate effect for (though suggestions are always welcome!)

EDIT: On second thought, since I listed nano damage type as being primarily from Tsihu, it would be interesting if like @MattHunX thought of, since nano damage is intended to eat into armor it could have an interrupt effect on our HUD's, too much nano damage in a short time would disable it permanently until we repaired our armor. I wouldn't assign that to electrical damage simply because the frames would be mostly protected against surges as I have posted before elsewhere.
 
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EvilKitten

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Jul 26, 2016
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#19
I like the approach of different layers of protection and the mods that bypass them, though elemental/specific damage types should be accessible while in combat via Ammo types or Abilities.
I figure 1 main weapon damage type, the alt fire if chosen could be anything independent of the main weapon. Plus whatever abilities you pick and choose, some of which might come in different "flavors" to suit your particular needs. The choice then comes in do you stack for one or two damage types or do you spread things around? Again it is going to come down to the jack of all trades vs. the specialist. The specialist is going to be really good at killing *something* but also very weak against *something else*. The baseline jack of all trades (pure ballistics/piercing) will not have that strength, or weakness.

The key here is player agency, whatever choice you go with needs to be a valid approach, even if there are certain situations that by specializing you end up not being able to solo. The Jack of all trades build should always be the most viable solo option because it allows you to face all types of encounters, however when doing group content, if the design is done properly then a 5 man specialized force with good synergy should be better at group content than 5 jack of all trade builds.
 
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