Horizontal Weapon theory:

[taiiat]

i'm thinking long term specialization can still be achieved, without a spiral of infinite stats.

at the core, IMO you can create very nice choices through:

• the sort of Weapon that is the slowest at Killing Enemies, would be the more generic and easy to use ones. inversely, the most unique and specialized ones would be the most effective at the same tasks.
  • this can be achieved without causing power fluctuations.
• so Generico Supreme Assault Rifle that you pull the trigger and never let go, as simple as 'i click on dudes and magic bullets come out', is Ray Trace, deals okay Damage per Shot, fires at a steady Rate of Fire, has a moderate Magazine Size, has a moderate Reload Time, Et Cetera. quite literally the most generic Weapon you could imagine.
  • this Weapon is stupidly easy to use, literally point and click - and therefore, it is less effective than most everything else.
  • every Weapon Archetype has Weapons like this. so easy to use you can barely imagine something so generic.
• on the flip side now, we have the most specialized Weapons. these aren't Ray Trace, may have diminishing Projectile Velocity to deal with, anything you can imagine. the more of these sorts of traits a Weapon has, and therefore the... 'less easy' it is to use, the better it performs.
  • so say, a generic Sniper Rifle that is basically a long Range DMR, vs a Projectile based, diminishing Velocity, higher Zoom Heavy DMR, which requires Charging before firing.
    this Weapon is therefore much more effective at being a Sniper Rifle. but it's certainly much more complex to use.
• with most any thing in between. offering Weapons in every Archetype that range from ease of application to complex power.

this results in encouraging the Player to get more comfortable with different Weapons, and when they feel ready, choosing to opt towards the more complex Weapons.
since the purposed intention is to be Skill Based, this does that very well. and still has a feeling of Vertical Progression, while it being hard to say whether it does or does not in actuality.

rather than inflating numbers to use as crutches to rely on broken up by spikes of the game fighting back against the extra legs of the chair that continue to appear, you're rewarding the Player for becoming more accustomed and comfortable with the game.
in some ways it is Vertical Progression, technically. but it's a very different style, and it's probably the closest fit for a game with the intention of this as could possibly exist.



(and mayhaps even going into the deep end and having these traits being things one can choose, and more traits that make a Weapon more Complex to use, makes the Weapon more effective in the process - or visa versa. this is a completely different story though, and despite how quintuplet thumbs up i am towards auto balancing systems of this sort, is an entirely different discussion and a very time consuming route to aim for due to the volume of spiderwebbing numbers.)

 

[TankHunter678]

I think it would be better to have a wide range of weapon types, but rather then moving up to a more specialized one in the class that is otherwise visually identical we should be able to mod it to be more specialized. In doing so altering the visual of the weapon.

We can have a sniper rifle that is ballistic, capable of shooting specialized munitions, has to be reloaded, etc.

And we can have a Sniper Rifle that is energy based, incapable of using specialized munitions, but does not need to "reload" if one manages their heat output well.

With another sniper rifle that is a hybrid of the two, opting for higher energy output per shot, but burns through "heat sink packs".

 

[MattHunX]

Like both ideas you two mentioned.

If I recall the devs said we'll have skill-progression for the different vehicles we'll use. So, why not have those for weapons. Like in DEFIANCE. With a limit. Using a single type of weapon would earn you experience with it, up to a point, granting you small bonuses for reload-speed, accuracy, swap, movement speed, encumbrance, range (note, it shouldn't grant one bonuses for damage, rate-of-fire, mag-size, AoE, for balances sake).

Of course, the same effects could be achieved through mods (with the weapon's appearance changing with each one, color too! Small things!). And the more one mods the better at it they can get, the stronger effects and better synergies they can produce with each tinkering.

But, maybe it doesn't need an experience curve to it, just the effects. To avoid vertical progression as much as possible.

 

[SomeUnregPunk]

If I recall the devs said we'll have skill-progression for the different vehicles we'll use.

so does that mean it is either you get better at driving the vehicle or using it's abilities or this is just an gateway to unlocking it permanently?

 

[Squid Boss]

I don't think we need a large selection of base weapon models.

If our frames are modular it could be that weapons simply are based on a class; AR, SMG, Pistol, etc.

Allow modifiers to change the behavior. Additional parts and different technologies change how the weapon works, how effective it could be against shields or armor, how stable or unstable it is, how accurate or inaccurate, how fast it fires vs how slow it fires, energy or physical. Perhaps even elemental types or bleed effects.

I'm not sure we need drastic changes to how the weapon performs or handles. It should still fit a role on the field, Short/Medium/Long range, living within a set of boundaries. I don't think you should have to re-learn a weapon or change it in a more dramatic way to provide a skill check. If it isn't more powerful but requires more effort then it won't be used. If it is more powerful and requires more effort it'll need to be used and less skilled players will simply be punished without an alternative.

If I understood that correctly.

 

[Beemann]

I would rather not teach new players bad aiming habits by giving a capped-usefulness gun an easier aiming style. In my experience this just causes people to fail to hit their full potential because if means bailing on their "favourite weapon" and forces them to relearn how to aim. Charging, higher/lower AoE etc are fine, but forcing people to learn an entirely different sort of aim doesn't really help the learning curve

 

[Daynen]

If the promise of horizontal progression is to be believed, then having a skill progression with anything needs to lead to new maneuvers or tuning options and nothing more. Any form of XP that leads to any form of bonus=vertical progression, which, in the ideal theory, is to be avoided.

The best way to handle this kind of specialization is of course with modifiable equipment and the specific rule that must be followed it that every upgrade either downgrades something else or comes with an increased operating cost, challenge of use or maintenance need--preferably at least two of those items at once. If something IS a strict upgrade in performance, it better be EXORBITANTLY expensive to run; there HAS to be a cost for a purely higher tier of technology.

If, for example, we take Ray Trace, our generic assault rifle above, and decide we want to do more damage with it, then perhaps we can use higher caliber bullets, which requires (at least) a bigger barrel, which hurts weapon spread and weight and requires more expensive ammunition; it's probably a little louder too. Our "Generico Supreme" is no longer supremely generic; it's more expensive to operate and requires better control at closer range, but it works the way we want it to for our playstyle without being a "free" upgrade like going from a "level 1" weapon to a "level 10" in the traditional MMO framework. We've sacrificed something important for the performance we want--THIS is an expression of what FF beta players liked about the constraints system: consequential equipment choices.

 

[Grummz]

So, horizontal progression still has a power curve. But it has 2 main differences in Ember:
1) Power curve is much shallower than traditional online game.
2) There is a strong skill component to many things, making skill matter

Just wanted to remind everyone that horizontal does not mean "flat" as we've defined it.

 

[Grummz]

So yes, I like the idea that skill can unlock the higher potential of a weapon or ability.

i'm thinking long term specialization can still be achieved, without a spiral of infinite stats.

at the core, IMO you can create very nice choices through:

• the sort of Weapon that is the slowest at Killing Enemies, would be the more generic and easy to use ones. inversely, the most unique and specialized ones would be the most effective at the same tasks.
  • this can be achieved without causing power fluctuations.
• so Generico Supreme Assault Rifle that you pull the trigger and never let go, as simple as 'i click on dudes and magic bullets come out', is Ray Trace, deals okay Damage per Shot, fires at a steady Rate of Fire, has a moderate Magazine Size, has a moderate Reload Time, Et Cetera. quite literally the most generic Weapon you could imagine.
  • this Weapon is stupidly easy to use, literally point and click - and therefore, it is less effective than most everything else.
  • every Weapon Archetype has Weapons like this. so easy to use you can barely imagine something so generic.
• on the flip side now, we have the most specialized Weapons. these aren't Ray Trace, may have diminishing Projectile Velocity to deal with, anything you can imagine. the more of these sorts of traits a Weapon has, and therefore the... 'less easy' it is to use, the better it performs.
  • so say, a generic Sniper Rifle that is basically a long Range DMR, vs a Projectile based, diminishing Velocity, higher Zoom Heavy DMR, which requires Charging before firing.
    this Weapon is therefore much more effective at being a Sniper Rifle. but it's certainly much more complex to use.
• with most any thing in between. offering Weapons in every Archetype that range from ease of application to complex power.

this results in encouraging the Player to get more comfortable with different Weapons, and when they feel ready, choosing to opt towards the more complex Weapons.
since the purposed intention is to be Skill Based, this does that very well. and still has a feeling of Vertical Progression, while it being hard to say whether it does or does not in actuality.

rather than inflating numbers to use as crutches to rely on broken up by spikes of the game fighting back against the extra legs of the chair that continue to appear, you're rewarding the Player for becoming more accustomed and comfortable with the game.
in some ways it is Vertical Progression, technically. but it's a very different style, and it's probably the closest fit for a game with the intention of this as could possibly exist.



(and mayhaps even going into the deep end and having these traits being things one can choose, and more traits that make a Weapon more Complex to use, makes the Weapon more effective in the process - or visa versa. this is a completely different story though, and despite how quintuplet thumbs up i am towards auto balancing systems of this sort, is an entirely different discussion and a very time consuming route to aim for due to the volume of spiderwebbing numbers.)

 

[Ronyn]

Good clarification!

 

[MattHunX]

so does that mean it is either you get better at driving the vehicle or using it's abilities or this is just an gateway to unlocking it permanently?

Dunno.

In DEFIANCE, the way it worked, was that you could get to...uh...I think level 20 with every type of vehicle, cars, quads..etc. and every level gave some bonus stat. Stronger, longer boost. Handling, maybe. Speed.

But, yeah. Unlocking a vehicle permanently could be accomplished through such a progression-system. Incorporated into it, that is.

 

[EvilKitten]

So, horizontal progression still has a power curve. But it has 2 main differences in Ember:
1) Power curve is much shallower than traditional MMO
2) There is a strong skill component to many things, making skill matter

Just wanted to remind everyone that horizontal does not mean "flat" as we've defined it.

Um horizontal is one dimensional, just as vertical is one dimensional. Perhaps you mean to say that the game will have a bit of both vertical and horizontal progression with emphasis on the later? Though I really would prefer not to see any vertical progression at all...

EDIT:

Also I am still holding out for a single weapon, we don't need more than one base main weapon type (assault rifle) ANY weapon design can be created from modifying an AR, whether it is is a high RoF SMG or a slow firing bolt action sniper to a rocket launcher. It all depends on the mods.

 

[Squid Boss]

Um horizontal is one dimensional, just as vertical is one dimensional. Perhaps you mean to say that the game will have a bit of both vertical and horizontal progression with emphasis on the later? Though I really would prefer not to see any vertical progression at all...

EDIT:

Also I am still holding out for a single weapon, we don't need more than one base main weapon type (assault rifle) ANY weapon design can be created from modifying an AR, whether it is is a high RoF SMG or a slow firing bolt action sniper to a rocket launcher. It all depends on the mods.

Steal the Borderlands Motto and tweak:
Omni-Gun; Bazillion Omni-Mods!

 

[MattHunX]

Um horizontal is one dimensional, just as vertical is one dimensional. Perhaps you mean to say that the game will have a bit of both vertical and horizontal progression with emphasis on the later? Though I really would prefer not to see any vertical progression at all...

EDIT:

Also I am still holding out for a single weapon, we don't need more than one base main weapon type (assault rifle) ANY weapon design can be created from modifying an AR, whether it is is a high RoF SMG or a slow firing bolt action sniper to a rocket launcher. It all depends on the mods.

Hmmm...I actually like this idea.

I don't know if it would present more work for the developers to create dozens of different weapons, or to just design dozens and dozens of modular parts that besides the stats and behavior they would alter on the weapon, they'd alter it's appearance, either subtly, depending on the extent of modding, or even drastically. Longer barrel for a conversion from assault to sniper rifle. Smaller, more compact for a conversion to an SMG. Robust for a grenade launcher...etc.

Since our frames will be Omni, and we will be able to swap parts to build it for different purposes, then why not have one Omni-weapon, as well, on the frame, that we can shape the same way.

Yeees! This is definitely a good basis to start the design on.

(We could have a naming contest for such an omni-weapon system. Some abbreviation, similar to the M.E.K. that could spell e.g.: Chimera or something that would denote the ability of the weapon to change forms.)

 

[EvilKitten]

Steal the Borderlands Motto and tweak:
Omni-Gun; Bazillion Omni-Mods!

As an example, here are some mods required to turn an AR into a rocket launcher (Actual numbers pulled out of my butt):

Mod 1: +Projectile Mass lvl 3
Projectile Size increased by 100%
Projectile Velocity decreased by 30%
Clip Size decreased by 50%
Max Ammo decreased by 50%

Mod 2: Self Propulsion lvl 3
Fired Projectile Self Propelled for 6 seconds
Negates Gravity
Projectile Velocity set to 15 m/s2

Mod 3: Explosive AoE lvl 4
Projectile uses Explosive Damage type
Explosive Damage @ 70% nominal
Projectile damage falloff 20% per meter after 1m radius

How about an SMG with alternate grenade launcher?

Mod 1: +Projectiles lvl 5
Clip size increased by 200%
Max Ammo increased by 300%
Player acceleration decreased by 15%
Projectile Mass decreased by 25%
Projectile Spread increased by 40%

Mod 2: -Projectile Speed lvl 2
Projectile Muzzle Velocity reduced by 20% (This effectively decreases damage)
Weapon sustained accuracy debuff decreased by 40%
Weapon Maneuverability increased by 20%
Target Vulnerability Damage increased by 10%

Mod 3: Grenade Launcher lvl 1 (Alternate)
Alternate Fire Grenade Launcher
Consumes 10% primary clip size per shot
Velocity at 50% primary velocity
Explosive AoE 50% primary damage with 40% falloff per meter after 0.5m radius

Note:
All projectile weapons assume 10m/s2 velocity towards the ground unless Gravity stat is turned off (rockets, beam weapons etc).

Weapon sustained accuracy debuff refers to the accuracy falloff a weapon sustains in rapid fire mode, IE the reticle growth as you continue to fire. Maneuverability likewise is the accuracy falloff due to player movement.

Explosive Damage would technically be calculated differently from projectile damage, where projectile damage is based on projectile mass and velocity, explosive damage is based on projectile mass and explosive velocity. For the sake of not adding extra stats and calculations however the explosive velocity is based on the projectile velocity stat.

 

[SomeUnregPunk]

Hmmm...I actually like this idea.

I don't know if it would present more work for the developers to create dozens of different weapons, or to just design dozens and dozens of modular parts that besides the stats and behavior they would alter on the weapon, they'd alter it's appearance, either subtly, depending on the extent of modding, or even drastically. Longer barrel for a conversion from assault to sniper rifle. Smaller, more compact for a conversion to an SMG. Robust for a grenade launcher...etc.

well that's how pretty much how loadout did it.
It's crafting system allowed you to use the 4 base frames to create a large assortment of stuff.

It was fun. The problem though was that you had to grind a lot in PvP game just to get the credits needed to unlock stuff within it's crafting system which was very tree like with lots of branches that further specialized each branch.

The tree was fine. Grinding in a PvP game got annoying though.

 

[Wyntyr]

Cool Sheet

Now if we can get something like that into Ember...minus huge grind due to not being F2P...

 

[MattHunX]

Now if we can get something like that into Ember...minus huge grind due to not being F2P...

Oh, yeah. I forgot that a non-F2P game should have reasonable demands for crafting recipes and whatnot. The problem I always had with MMOs was the insane requirements to get anywhere with obtaining better equipment and upgrading it.

 

[Wyntyr]

Oh, yeah. I forgot that a non-F2P game should have reasonable demands for crafting recipes and whatnot. The problem I always had to MMOs was the insane requirements to get anywhere on getting better equipment and upgrading it.

Definitely should be something in place to gain new gear schematics so you don't win the internet on day one, but no need for some huge drawn out grind for a game you actually paid to play.

 

[MattHunX]

Definitely should be something in place to gain new gear schematics so you don't win the internet on day one, but no need for some huge drawn out grind for a game you actually paid to play.

Oh, and not just equipment, but cosmetics and other stuff. Make the player work for it, but not forever.

Oh, boy...

If it wasn't for that bug with the 8 Titan Tokens giving you rewards in the form of tinker tools, besides the xp, after the weekly reset, on Baneclaw...it would literally take months if not years to Tinker just one or a few pieces of equipment to max level. It's mental.