[Repost] It's really too bad

[DARKB1KE]

This is a repost of my final thoughts/summary of FireFall. I am posting again here for keepsake should the Steam forums disappear.
http://steamcommunity.com/app/227700/discussions/0/458604254460196794/

Part 1:

FireFall could have been really great.

I am DarkByke, I've been a Founder of this game since Closed Beta. I knew after watching some gameplay videos online that this would be my first MMO and game that I would spend a lot of time playing and getting to know people. I signed up on the forums and shortly later I was accepted to participate in testing! I was stoked on the storyline and lore, and wanted to be a part of a futuristic shooter game where you could collect resources and make a better character and customize it. Best yet, it was FREE TO PLAY! I hate subscription games with a passion.

Let's dig a bit into some areas where "it went wrong" in my opinion:

First they had the concept of an open development 'iterative beta'. Players got to see the ugly mess behind closed doors that normally is not shown to the public. This should have been apparent to early supporters, but they chose to remain ignorant of that fact and continually complained about bugs. Bugs are to be expected when you are making a game. It will happen, they will come up anywhere and everywhere. So here you have players seeing the early 3+ years of development time that is normally hidden. Bugs affect them and give them a negative view as an unpolished product (well yeah... that's the point). I think this style of development had a good intention, but it wasn't well received by players.

The other main issue was it was a continous identity crisis. They wanted to appease everyone and make everyone happy, which led to taking advice from everyone and so it went through several changes. Each change made another group of player dislike the game and made them quit. If they were working on PVP updates, the PVE crowd was feeling ignored, and vice-versa. It was continually like this throughout beta period. Nobody could decide on anything and players just argued about what was the best or what they preferred.

So they didn't know if it was going to have open world collect resources and fight players, or just pve content with storyline, or just pvp.... and then the balancing caused even more issues as they tried to make PVE weapons work in PVP, and balance was all over the place making more players angry or rage quitting...

Early beta showed signs of vertical progression, but we never got to test that far. Only 2 tiers of frames, with 3 and 4 being teased. I think they had always intended to make it a diagonal progression, but many UI's and systems weren't very user-friendly to use. You had to make charts just to be able to craft parts for your battleframe. That's not fun.

The resources system changed many times. At first they used futuristic mineral names for everything, and we had 1000 qualities of these types. The crafting crowd was not happy with minimal gains and they said it was bad to have 1000 types, they wanted it reduced to maybe 100, so your resources used in crafting would feel like a difference instead of 0.01% change when making a gun or armor. Eventually they reduced the resources into 3 types and made the names all standard, such as metals, bios, tech.

The level system was supposed to allow players to have a standard system of getting stronger, but many feel this alienates them from playing with friends if they are too high/too low than their friends. Typical RPG game stuff here, do actions, get loot, become a better character the more you play. They needed some better scaling and downscaling methods to allow for better group play.

The UI was never informative. Tons of item descriptions made no sense, and crafting was never easy with the printer, you couldn't see what happened to your gear without making a chart and running back and forth to check your garage. This also harmed the game in my opinion, crafting should be easy to understand at first glance.

The open world gameplay was cut when the game ran into technical limitations with its engine and rendering too many players in the same area. This is when they were testing invasion mechanics in towns. Players complained about the lag, and eventually invasions were removed because they were too taxing on the servers. It's too bad, it was a good mechanic and I would have loved to see more done with area control and melding pushbacks.

 

[DARKB1KE]

Part 2:

Thumping was interesting for its time. The problem was that in beta we could drop them anywhere we wanted to. At first, people placed them on trees, then the enemy AI couldn't climb up hills, so they fixed the AI to go anywhere (good). After that, there was still more bugged locations in which players quickly took advantage of where you can drop thumpers, and no enemies spawned, or enemies couldn't damage thumper. Thumper capactity was a huge amount back then, it's been nerfed quite a lot now. More broken thumper spots led to the changing of where thumpers could drop, lots of places are limited now so it really removed a lot of exploration element to it unfortunately. Anyways, the problem with thumpers was that it was never that interesting, same enemy spawns and timing so players wanted more challenge to them, rightfully so. So it was a combination of players abusing thumpers leading to their demise. This sorta ties into the economy and crafting, which is a whole issue on its own.

The chosen have never been a real force to reckon with. They've always been nerfed down for some odd reason. They wanted to baby the players and not give them a hard time. The very lore of this game is about human race survival, we should be cooperating to fight back chosen, not hiding in towns safely. They are no longer the purple alien race we once knew, they are now some odd human looking pale skinned things.

I could talk about PVP, but I didn't play it that much. I don't like getting stomped with uneven teams, sorry not sorry. That's why I won't go into open world pvp games, it's too easy to mass zerg and own a zone completely.

PVP was removed entirely at one point, they took on too much at once, and couldn't develop for both PVE and PVP at the same time, because each was conflicting with the other. PVP feedback would have been ignored if they left it in game... so who knows what the right call was, leave something broken in game, or removed it until later? So this caused 50% (guess) playerbase to leave the game, and this created BitterVets, who are angry at 5 and will do anything to throw the game under to chase their personal vendettas.

The Stage 5 TV was massively misunderstood and what Kern was trying to achieve. He was marketing the game towards nerd culture and areas outside of gaming. People also don't realize that marketing/advertising budget is not the same as development budget. So they see money being spent on advertisments and think it's taking away from making the game better. They couldn't be any more wrong about that - Another thing that hurt the game in a way. R5 also saved money by producing their own ads in house, instead of going the standard television commercial ads. The bus was a fresh and unique idea for a way to advertise the game, but unfortunately ran into legal issues with the bus and the company who created the bus, it wasn't road-legal for driving. Can't blame the guy for thinking outside the box when it comes to advertisement.

Around 2012 they thought the game was ready for release, or near to it, and they could have done so and left it a PVP only shooter game. That's why money was spent too early in beta for advertising, and it was when they added PVE content that the game changed routes. So that's unfortunate, but I'm glad they added more than just PVP.

I was always hoping for more consequences in the game. I wanted our actions to have meaning, like opening new areas for people to explore. Sadly that was never able to happen because of tech limitations again. The dynamic part of firefall is the things that spawn around you as you move in the world, as well as who you are playing the content with can change, or random players nearby. It's not a "true dynamic" in the sense that if you liberate a city, or save a hostage, something else happens in the world.

Permanent gear destruction was a thing that pushed many players away. We were sure it was there to stay forever. Except they didn't even introduce it properly to players. Instead of a nice system where players are continually rewarded with items and gear to replace the old stuff, they won't feel as bad when they have to replace gear. Instead we were always losing crystite and gear, without having replacements or nice shinies to keep us feeling good. The positives must outweigh the negatives in order to be a good system. Eventually they removed it due to many players feedback and players leaving the game.

The constant reworks never allowed them time to develop actual content, and content for players at max (end game). That caused them to leave once they hit max and finished the game with nothing else to do.

They aren't creating very many cosmetics for people to buy. I was sitting on tons of red beans waiting for things to buy... but nothing ever came. I still wonder how they were making money, on a game that was free to play and only selling cosmetics and red beans.... Give us more stuff to purchase!

I think that is all for now.
It's been a bumpy road for this game. I honestly wish it turned out better, it had so much going for it. It had such an awesome art style and world I wanted to be a part of. I wanted to be the first to kill major bosses and explore new areas. I wanted to coop with players and become a big name in this game. I met a lot of cool people, and I've learned quite a lot about how much goes into making games. I treat people better, with more respect, because as an artist I know what it's like to creating something from nothing. You support it, it's not easy to do when most people think it will fail. And it's nice that they tried something never done before, an open world mmo shooter.

I hope it pulls through after the 1.6 update. I hope it's enjoyable once more because this game provided me with 5+ years of gameplay for free. (i did spend $250 on beans but shhhhhh!)

 

[EviltwO]

May i say something about annoying things like "fun" and "easy to understand" ?

The best crafting in this game was around 0.6+ version. It was also tied to frames and gameplay in general. From simple and boring "put in any resource - > wait -> take out wunderwaffe" it turned into looking for list of needed resources, (not only rare quality, basically any quality was necessary) deciding how you want to make your frame, which stats you want to adjust and which you gonna sacrifice because of frame limits, gather it all together, check all other items of your frame to match and finally spent bunch of time to craft all the stuff. It was pretty complicated and you needed using notepad (or special addon) and good memory + finding exact resource you need was not easier too (better call it hunting, that was a real hunt). All of that greatly affected the economy and gameplay. Was it easy to understand ? ( Depends from person - and this is what from all the problems come) for most people - guess not, was it fun ? for most people - guess not, was it good? - yeah dat was a goddamn masterpiece and one of the best crafting system i have seen for long-long time of playing online games. I don't need to say all of that gone pretty soon cause of "it's not fun" complaints.

In your text you also saying something about chosens. From scary and hard enemy they become a training dummies.
Guess why that happen? ^_^
Same about frames and the level of skill you needed to master em.
Do you also remember old and "not fun" mechanics of gliders? and the new players flying like bricks ?
So with time "fun" changed most of game aspects and took out all actual fun and joy from playing this game.

Right now playing other beta game i see the exact same thing happening. Devs there listening to community trying to make things "fun and easier to understand". Interesting/new mechanics, some complicated and higher skill rate aspects - slowly spreading and getting destroyed by mass of confused (read dumb) players. Game loosing it's identity and differences from others :/

Firefall is not the first game suffering from this, the other beta game i am playing not surprising me becoming more primitive, well, sometimes making things easier actually required. But in general this is there the "fun" leads to: casual bullshit.

p.s. not complaining, just noticing and sorry for bad english.

 

[DARKB1KE]

p.s. not complaining, just noticing and sorry for bad english.

Your english was very good, thank you for commenting.
It's interesting because ideally you would want your game to be approachable to a large majority of players so it gets "dumbed down" but at the same time some fun mechanics are removed in the process, maybe unintentionally? I don't know, there's definitely a balance inbetween in getting as many people to purchase/play your game and repulsing people from actually trying it.

 

[Boomshieko]

I loved how the resources reflected the actual mineral's/gas's natural characteristics. Much akin to Minecraft where players have to actually learn things that could potentially be used IRL. (with some base obvious alterations from game to RL being understood)

... it was amazing that ceramic was used for heat dissipation, copper was used for conductivity, but iron could be used as well (albeit much less efficient). I like that. That means the developers know a bit of physics. I love having knowledge cross over into the real world.

It also allows those gamers who pay attention to things, lighten their weapons by using carbon, rather than iron, while maintaining durability.

Intelligent gaming is possible without over complicating. (I wasn't a fan of the 1000 resources, I'd rather see like 10-15 per element). Dumbing down to appease the masses is never a good thing. If they can't swing it, then they can go back to WOW and ride the quest rollercoaster.

 

[Ronyn]

The pendulum swings too hard.
That is to say: The way resources reflected properties was quite interesting but the 1000 resource qualities was bloat, not depth. It was needless complexity, not room for skill.
Unfortunately instead of refining that design, simplifying the bloat but retaining the depth, they threw it away.
There is definitely a way to balance easy to learn with true depth....and it begins with measured responses to each problem at hand.

 

[Rocket]

FireFall could have been really great.

I'm of the belief that it was really great. It's just unfortunate that it wasn't even greater still.

Consider how far they came. It's worth watching the whole video, but i you don't want to watch it all, start at 18:10

 

[EviltwO]

I loved how the resources reflected the actual mineral's/gas's natural characteristics...

... it was amazing that ceramic was used for heat dissipation, copper was used for conductivity, but iron could be used as well (albeit much less efficient). I like that. That means the developers know a bit of physics...

..Intelligent gaming is possible without over complicating...

This is how the true "sci-fi" should be, it must have some real science stuff inside its core.

May a remind you the top question in chat while stage you talking about?

"Where i can find gas?" (. _ . )

^ do not realise the "gas" to unlock next stage of the frame is already in a bag because there is no large neon sign with arrow telling you "THIS IS THE GAS! YES! HELIUM IS GAS! AMAZING RIGHT?!"
Then you may say: "hey it's not from strength/resistance of materials university course (so much pain eh-ehh).It's a school program and also possible to figure that out without getting some special knowledge"
But what's obvious for you not always obvious for others (captain here )
The question is how to balance between all of this.

Btw the big flashing sign not really helps (people ardently ignore signs, guides and warnings).

Don't wanna sound unpopular but... about 1000Q - all of you saying bullshit. I mean there wasn't 1k qualities of resources. Only those: grey, white, green, blue, purple, orange. Only 6 and you can take out orange and grey, because it's mostly marks the bottom and top. So it's actual 4. Well there still was small difference on each stage between values (like 955 and 958 or 978) but effect was very slight and pointless.
And one more mark about 1k and the sci-fi thingy: does it remind you something? like the quality of gold 585/985 ? i loved that and thought this was "obvious". So it's only 4 qualities if we talk about "bloat" and the 0-1000 just adds some small variability for perfectionists.

Anyway talking about gone things making me sad.
p.s. this is complaint, same sorry for same thing cause it's not my native and i am lazyass in questions of learning
p.p.s.

Part 2:

(i did spend $250 on beans but shhhhhh!)

my account tells me i spend 185 ^_^ and this is the biggest amount of money i ever payed for beta and f2p games. my heart still broken :/

 

[Ronyn]

Don't wanna sound unpopular but... about 1000Q - all of you saying bullshit. I mean there wasn't 1k qualities of resources. Only those: grey, white, green, blue, purple, orange. Only 6 and you can take out orange and grey, because it's mostly marks the bottom and top. So it's actual 4. Well there still was small difference on each stage between values (like 955 and 958 or 978) but effect was very slight and pointless.
And one more mark about 1k and the sci-fi thingy: does it remind you something? like the quality of gold 585/985 ? i loved that and thought this was "obvious". So it's only 4 qualities if we talk about "bloat" and the 0-1000 just adds some small variability for perfectionists.

What you describe is exactly the point.
If 100 qualities offers the same relevant stat variations on gear as 1000 qualities there is bloat. Refine it to 100.
If 10 qualities offers the same relevant stat variations on gear as 100 qualities there is bloat. Refine it to 10.
Those big numbers do nothing to give the crafter options so they serve no good purpose. All those big numbers might do is confuse newer players who may not initially see through it. It was bloat, it needed refinement....unless someone just likes superfluous numbers.

 

[EviltwO]

confuse newer players who may not initially see through it
unless someone just likes superfluous numbers.

"What you describe is exactly the point". This is what we talk about ^_^ confusing players and fans of great "gearscore".
you forgot one more. me selling resource of same stage +30/50 value and getting a bit worser one to craft gear. instant source of cheap good gear everyone is happy.
guess i am starting to flood.

 

[Btabc]

What I thought was a little odd was all the whiplash I suffered from the back and forth from different intro gameplay and changing all the weapons and how they worked. FC and Reclus were some of my favorite frames, but after the rework of Recluse I stopped using it because of the alt-fire and rework of weapons/abilities it was getting old fast. I have to admit that some of the newer weapons worked "nice" and felt good, but changing constantly was where it started going downhill.

 

[Valos Athon]

Problem is that nowadays, devs forgot the most important thing : a game where you have fun, is not a funny game, it's game that have to be mastered to enjoy it's full potential, where you have to learn "how to".
Players don't want instant fun, they don't want tons of loot and stuff, they just want REWARDING gameplay !! Someone who is rewarded for his work is really a happy one.
If he doesn't get rewarded, you can be sure he'll be kinda decieved and will make a bad adv about the game !!
And many games fail cause Devs want to get money too fast by creating a game that lures as many ppl as it can.
I can't blame them for wanting to be paid for their work.
But they forget in the process that these types of games are the ones that last only a few years : 2 maybe 3 or 4 with luck...
The deal is that a succesful game is a game where you start with a little community of gamers and not casu, then if the game basics are good, the word is spread and the little community becomes huge community.
These games are long term investment, and nowadays, most of ppl only want short term investment.
That's why everything is no more durable. Everything is just a " one shot ". You get fun for a period then get bored really fast, then you move on.
Casu are not a reliable income for they spend few bucks and then move on cause they get bored.
Real players don't spend much in the begining, but with time, when they see that the game worths it, they spend a lot.
That's what Devs should always get in mind and not forget.
I spent more than 300$ in Firefall, and all of my mates spent likewise. And we would have spent more if Firefall didn't had such a chaotic development to see it turn into a fracking stupid corean game like...

 

[DARKB1KE]

Problem is that nowadays, devs forgot the most important thing : a game where you have fun, is not a funny game, it's game that have to be mastered to enjoy it's full potential, where you have to learn "how to".
Players don't want instant fun, they don't want tons of loot and stuff, they just want REWARDING gameplay !! Someone who is rewarded for his work is really a happy one.
If he doesn't get rewarded, you can be sure he'll be kinda decieved and will make a bad adv about the game !!

That problem the game already ran into. The constraints system took forever to advance your character and many new players quit before they could get stronger frames. Since you had to thump to get the resources to advance, many dropped off.
That's where I think the fun needs to be focus. You shouldn't have to play 6-8 hours before a game becomes fun. I say instant action is better, but that's just my opinion.

And many games fail cause Devs want to get money too fast by creating a game that lures as many ppl as it can.
I can't blame them for wanting to be paid for their work.

Well yeah... it's a big business. If you can't pay for studio costs and employee wages and paying off the investors/publishers well yeah... you'd expect them to need to make money somehow. That's only business.

But they forget in the process that these types of games are the ones that last only a few years : 2 maybe 3 or 4 with luck...
The deal is that a succesful game is a game where you start with a little community of gamers and not casu, then if the game basics are good, the word is spread and the little community becomes huge community.
These games are long term investment, and nowadays, most of ppl only want short term investment.
That's why everything is no more durable. Everything is just a " one shot ". You get fun for a period then get bored really fast, then you move on.
Casu are not a reliable income for they spend few bucks and then move on cause they get bored.
Real players don't spend much in the begining, but with time, when they see that the game worths it, they spend a lot.
That's what Devs should always get in mind and not forget.
I spent more than 300$ in Firefall, and all of my mates spent likewise. And we would have spent more if Firefall didn't had such a chaotic development to see it turn into a fracking stupid corean game like...

I think you're talking about "casual" players compared to ones that have played for a longer amount of time?
Yes, that's usually how it goes, if people are having a fun time they will spend more time in the game and become more invested into it and are more likely to want to spend money. I don't think there is a magic formula though for what will be successful and what won't be.