On how to keep content relevant

Dec 27, 2016
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#1
Hello there. I've been thinking about this topic, maybe because I've seen too many games I liked suffer because of it (inc. our beloved FireFall, most sadly). I guess you have seen it happen too because, regrettably, it's a very common occurrence esp. regarding massive multiplayer games (for the purpose of this topic, let's set aside the possible semantic conflicts and include Ember in this category).

Yes, I'm talking about 'power creep': let's define it as 'what happens when content you run in the earlier/middle stages stops being attractive and therefore ends up being forgotten'.
When 99.9% of your playtime in your Ember-life is confined to 5% or less of everything the game has to offer then it's bad and the game has a very low 'return' (in terms of enjoyment hours) for the production efforts, and I'd say any developer should spare no creative energy and adequate planning (and later evaluation) in order to actively fight against this.

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Before going any further, we need to clarify something: if there's going to be ANY kind of player 'material' progression (like developing your frames or vehicle/base building, this does NOT mean 'traditional leveling', by the way) then there MUST be vertical progression. It's inevitable.

Now, I know what you're thinking, my dear Ares pilots: 'but they said progression is going to be mostly horizontal, like 'unlocking' different 'flavors' for your frames/vehicles and gear which are optional and not necessarily a lot better'. Let me tell you now what will happen under that strict scheme so you realize the consequences are always detrimental to the game.

- a) Redundancy and lack of real impact. If all content is doable with 'stock' equipment (pure horizontal prog.) then there's no reason whatsoever to upgrade and to having long term 'material' goals other than 'I want to try that rainbow shooting gun because it looks awesome'. It's a big hit to player motivation and to the game's retaining power. Once you have the 'rainbow gun' you will feel kind of dumb because it really does nothing the good ol' stock weapon couldn't do and in the end the difference isn't really'impactful' but merely 'aesthetic'. 'Yeah, it was fun for like 2 hours'.
'We could make the 'grind' very light then, to compensate for the lack of 'attractiveness'... well, that's the quick band-aid but to me it sounds more like 'we don't care about our game staying power at all'. This is the extreme, but please notice that 'Ok, it will be MOSTLY horizontal with only a little vertical' would still fall into the same 'redundancy trap' only to a slightly lesser degree.

OR

- b) No 'material' progression at all and everything available at any time. That means no gearing, no economy/crafting and no sense of achievement other than practice and skill related. In other words, it means the refusal of many aspects and just 'let's be a plain shooter'. Lack of ambition and a very narrow, limited scope.

That's basically what 'horizontal progression' means and if you know a way to prevent it and still stick to 'horizontal', please do tell.
Note that when I say 'gear' and 'material progression', it includes any form this could take (from guns, vehicles, base assets, etc.).

Now, some may say 'but the idea is that you gather resources to build a tank and then that tank allows you to fight the next bad guys'. Let me tell you that IS vertical progression, or if you want to look at it in another way, then you could call it 'content unlocking requisite' but it's pointless to make the difference because both things mean and achieve the same thing.


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I know many of you have a negative idea concerning 'vertical' but that's because you've seen the ill effects of power creep: making content obsolete and also getting the worst out of the players in the social and personal levels. Let me tell you that's solely because of wrong implementation and it's not a logical inevitability. Not to sound pretentious but the norm out there is devs do it wrong OR devs do it to serve their monetary agenda in detriment of their game because it still works and as long as $ keeps flowing then who cares and who's to say what's good and what's bad after all?

Be with me on this and let's state the fact the gaming industry is in poor shape and if it's true it works economically, if you have even a slight sense of criticism and a healthy dose of imagination and analysis (and a larger dose of ambition and hope for a change) then we can safely agree that 'the gaming industry is full of sterile formulas and conceptual atrocities'.
But this can change, not because of corporate machinations (those drones will always fail in the end), but because of independent thinkers and passionate creatives. I want to believe this game has what it takes, and experienced and motivated visionary in charge. Firefall's history showed me this (this is personal perception and off topic, feel free to disagree but what are you doing here if you think that's not true?).

'Ok then, that's nice and all but where you going with this?'.
Here: SCALING and REWARD to keep content relevant, game diverse and players happy. Vertical progression can be free of power creep.



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* SCALING *


Summarizing some conditions: There will be no (cow) levels. There will be vertical progression (upgrades will add diversity, flavor, AND power).
What's the story then?
I'll set an example.

This pilot here has 'end game' equipment, he can tackle all content the game has to offer and his personal armory has many 'unlocks', different 'grade' gear and multiple options within each tier (yes, note how 'tier' is related to vertical prog.).
Wouldn't he crush earlier game content and commit the sin of 'power creep'? No. You see, this (early) area has a 'low energy grid', that means his top of the line equips don't work here, those guns can't fire and those shields won't power up. He must visit his armory and pick up a gear set-up appropriate for this area. Luckily, the 'lower tier' of hardware still has some respectable degree of variety (because he 'grinded' the lower bracket to expand it horizontally) allowing for customization and really doesn't feel like 'I went to the low area and I can't use any cool toys at all'.
That's right soldier, you wanted to go to the lower area and so you must outfit for the task at hand.

In my opinion, this is much easier to balance and adds a lot to gameplay variety compared to the most flat approach of 'let's just nerf his numbers and let him keep the same set-up'. Not only lower content, but also lower GEAR stays relevant through the whole game if the player so desires. If the palette is colorful enough then 'low level' is as enjoyable as 'end game', for some at least and the result is greater than the sum of its parts because we must take into consideration the strong beneficial effect it has on playerbase integration.

Does this mean we'll be forced to replay those 'low level' areas too? No. I don't believe in 'forcing' anything on anyone, I believe in 'options to break the routine' and attractive variety.
In FireFall (1.3) you 'could' go low area (farm carbon) but scaling was atrocious (too easy) and it was a really boring activity w.o much else to choose from. Really poor implementation.

This, my friends, is intended to demonstrate a healthy harmonic integration of vertical + horizontal growth is not only possible, but the way to go, IMHO.

The difference between a veteran and a starter is about experience and proficiency but never in 'numbers power'. High 'level' pilots are a welcome addition in the early/middle areas and not there to troll and ruin the party. Make it so enemies can simulate tactics to some extent, have multiple 'pressure points' and not even the most experienced guys should be able to 'effortlessly cheese the fight' for everybody else. Please don't think about 'frustrating difficulty'. Think wider. See it solely as 'fair but still somewhat challenging, well conceived encounter design'. Of course, it will always be easier the more good/advanced players are around, but still I believe 'challenge' is not an abstract concept and I'm convinced it can be shaped with an acceptable degree of precision if devs believe in it and are not afraid of empirical tests and corrections. Simulation, projection, observation, analysis and calculations, estimation, testing and correction. A good dev's tools. Time: sadly a luxury.


That leads to the second point:



* REWARD *


Everything falls to pieces if there's no other motivation for players to 'downlevel themselves' other than to break the monotony or meet some social schedule. Everything fails if the journey feels arbitrarily and unnecesarily restrictive or purposeless.

Let's illustrate it with a little scene.

'We need to harvest those crystals and bring them back so we can produce power cells for our 'Megabolt cannon' there at the hottest zone in dispute. The bad guys have a Behemoth en-route, according to scout's intel, and we're gonna need to fire our big gun at least twice to break his defenses and give our troops and vehicles a fighting chance'.

'Main deposits in range for our convoys to make it in time are located here (nearby) and here (bit far away, near the 'lower level' base)'.

- Pilot A: 'Hey, me and my squad of ultimate bad asses can help those guys here at the front line ('high level area'). I just got this puppy (looks proudly at his newest acquisition, the high power particle beam phalanx)... bring 'em on!'.

- Pilot B: 'Keep your panties on! Look, they have three heavies, two snipers and a saboteur. If we want to help there we could use a medic for the troops and an engineer for vehicle and turret support. It will definitely make life easier'.

- Pilot C: 'Well, I suppose it's gonna be on me to try keep your asses alive... just like old times'.
*switches to medical frame*

- Pilot D: 'I'll handle the toys, gentlemen'.
*switches to technician frame*

- Pilot E: (consults tactical situation map) 'Looks like there's only a few pilots there at Outpost 27 (farther, secondary crystal deposit, 'lower level' area). Opposition is light but the convoy has a long way ahead, timing is gonna be tight and the road between here and there is suspiciously silent'.

- Pilot F: 'An ambush?'.

- Pilot E: 'I don't know but we shouldn't take any chances. We better get moving. That convoy must make it here or we all doomed'.

- Pilot F: 'Energy grid near 27 is at 15%. Operating on auxiliary power. Main reactor took heavy damage after last attack. Still undergoing repairs. No energy weapons, and only class 2 shields it seems'.

- Pilot E: 'Looks like we're going the old-fashioned way'.
*puts plasma cannon in the weapon rack, picks up the lower tech ballistic minigun*

- Pilot F: 'Let's roll!'
*both pilots jump on the lightweight all terrain vehicle and head to Outpost 27*


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As you see, if you got this far, the idea is this:
'Advanced' player would have progressed 'materially' (vertically) but he can play ANY content he desires at any time as long as it suits his goals. Fun factor and motivation for low level areas do not necessarily decrease as the player advances.
'Starter' players are somewhat restricted at the beginning but that's fine because 'lower' encounters are aimed towards a gentle and non-pushy learning process (keep in mind you still should try to shoot straight! No matter who you are, enemies do fight back, and they bite!).
Most if not all of content in game stays relevant (including low tier gear). Players feel more connected to the whole playerbase and have freedom of choice and own pace instead of obnoxious and castrating hermetic 'end game only' and 'deserted starter areas'.

Thank you for reading. Let me know what you think. And no, there's not a TL;DR version.
 

Pandagnome

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#3
There are some good points here and your right in that alot of very cool games eventually die but i think there is more factors involved in why a game would just go down the pan.

perhaps why:

1) Game developer do not have full control of the game = idea of the game not fully implemented
2) Funding is limited = results lack of pay
3) The right people still not acquired = not able to complete tasks soon enough
4) updates/expansion/bugfixes needed = not enough content/challenges and errors ongoing
5) Staff Personal issues e.g. changes in their circumstance affecting their work e.g. illness, location change, etc etc
6) Not listening to feedback from fans/others = making some happy and others not so!
7) Direction of the game has changed = too many changes of the core game & how it used to be
8) Not unique boring copy = just another game with another skin :O

I like the idea of keeping low tier weapons necessary sure some would like to go back to the lower lvl area's and it would keep things even. It also helps go back and replaying quests perhaps to help new players or just to revisit the story, maybe this time round the story would slightly alter perhaps you over looked something and there are hidden things or maybe you are forced to use a certain weapon this time around in the quest because your experience lvl is higher and must show your skill to complete it this time round??

For me personally what makes me interested in a game long after maxing things up completely is variety, patches/expansions/updates and Quests/special events.


An example is the cool event with the motobike races with collecting stuff to get new bikes in firefall i absolutely loved that event. But sure i do agree that it be even better to have a upgradable sections so that the bike could be used for different purposes e.g. as a medic bike so you could picks up injured casualty to safety and heal, or turn it into an attack bike by replacing the healing component with a weaponary to use as a trapper with mines or have saw-blades come out from the sides as you zoom past enemies to chop things etc etc

An example with expansion would be warframe with the Eidelon expansion, it was a big thing not everyone liked it but it gave the game more freedom for using their Archwing, exploring a new environment and things to do which adds to the variety including fishing and quests to create custom build weaponry/items.

My dream game would have all these elements of each game combined

Supermario kart ....yes because red shells and fun race tracks
Need for speed unground 2 = because i like customization to my nice car with neons and sound system plus racing around
L4d2 = good co-op and fan base mods
KF2 = mods and selection of maps and asthetics
Warframe = space ninjas and variety of enemies plus have your own spaceship
mgs = nice soundtrack and hide in box
(old) thief = sneaky sneaky and not get caught
Firefall = unique with thumpers, motorbikes, gliders, and great story
global agenda = AvA contesting map regions and fun modes
Gears of war = because i like doing forward rolls and using my chainsaw gun
Roadrash/road redemption = collecting monies, upgrading and smacking others off bikes :p
Lost planet = 3rd person in mechs, enviromental hazard and fun

I am not asking for much :p

oh and i'd like to see some form of racing in em8er because that be insane like a future mech racer league when people want to do something else.

You know in the game starwars pod racer but with mechs :D:cool::D
 

Mahdi

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#4
Entirely too much to read this early but with the first segment my initial comment would be firefall did great at keeping all zones and mobs relevant with thumping and crafting in the game. Sure you had hot spots for the 930-1000 grade resources but the need for whites and mob drops had you hunting and thumping every where in zones of your choice.

Power creep is an inevitability on any game because players want to feel more powerful as they invest time. Some areas should be crushed easily as a breeze to wall through. But this is also where the open world war and base raiding kaiju will help with the spread of content through zones.

The team is more than aware of hard spots to develop. Balance of gear first example and this is a snare from firefall due to OP combinations. The other is the random generated events that won't be repetitive but still constantly rewarding.

Keeping fresh players and veterans fighting the Tsi-Hu at all locations together is hard to achieve. I believe we will see ground breaking progress on this front in Em-8er.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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#5
Entirely too much to read this early but with the first segment my initial comment would be firefall did great at keeping all zones and mobs relevant with thumping and crafting in the game. Sure you had hot spots for the 930-1000 grade resources but the need for whites and mob drops had you hunting and thumping every where in zones of your choice.
yeah but then the devs decided to go crazy with their limits on where you can thump and what you can do which drove people away.

that and probably their consistent drive to make everything easy. It's why I liked CowBoy's attempt to put skill back into Firefall before he was fired and his work reversed. stupid leadership...

to the OP ...
items and stuff to keep things relevant ain't what's going to be able to keep people here. It's stuff to do.

For example: In Firefall we had a few events that had community goals in them. They were interesting because there was something groups and a single person could strive together for. The zone unlocking event, the weird chemical thumping event, etc. And then they stopped having them which made no sense to me.

Honestly I think Kern has the right idea in regards to this already.
 
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Dec 27, 2016
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LV-426
#7
to the OP ...
items and stuff to keep things relevant ain't what's going to be able to keep people here. It's stuff to do.
'Stuff to do'... so what IS that if we exclude every form of 'item'? A plain shooter without any form of individual character progression. Your character is exactly the same for all eternity from the moment you start the game for the 1st time. You fight invasions, unlock zones, and that's it. Base construction belongs to 'items and stuff' (even if they just temporary), should that be scrapped too?
Why have only HALF a game when you could have a full game? Just because mainstream corporate slaves and lowest common denominator feeders fail?
You could have 'stuff to do' and 'stuff to get' and they are not mutually exclusive in any way.

Keeping fresh players and veterans fighting the Tsi-Hu at all locations together is hard to achieve. I believe we will see ground breaking progress on this front in Em-8er.
Honestly I think Kern has the right idea in regards to this already.
i'm confident this'll be fine with him in charge.
I HOPE, but couldn't say more than that at this point. I wish I could share your blind enthusiasm, but sure as hell I won't share your disappointment if it comes to that in the end. The specifics don't matter and are only illustrative, it's the core principles and the ways to achieve what matters this early. Once work has been done there's no turning back, if you don't get it right at core level from conception then the only thing you can do afterwards is delay the inevitable.
Most just rather say nothing relevant, see what comes out in the end and then come complaining in droves. Suit yourselves.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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#8
uhm Destination.... have you actually seen what Kern's goals are for this game? It doesn't sounds like you have.

and it also seems like you are offended in that last post. Nobody is attacking you here.
 
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#9
uhm Destination.... have you actually seen what Kern's goals are for this game? It doesn't sounds like you have.

and it also seems like you are offended in that last post. Nobody is attacking you here.
Yes, I have. But have you seen anything about HOW are the goals going to be achieved (or have you even thought about it), do you have anything that supports your... lack of concern? (It's rhetorical question, I know there's nothing but hope and wishes, and easy trust). Where did you get 'there's not going to be crafting and itemization of any kind' (that's what you say by 'items and stuff is not what will keep people coming back')? (Again, have to repeat buildings and vehicles and every type of resource gathering for any purpose inc. zone unlocks would also fit this criteria, I'm not restricting it to traditional 'gear slots' and merely used it as an example because it's clear, and I have to clarify I think that shouldn't be the only goal but it should exist anyway).

I know I'm mixing things but they just can't be separated. Global war effort involves player integration, and said integration has an effect on personal progression and vice versa, and that progression involves both 'material' and 'skill based' (experience) unless this is going to be an action game for which the former is totally removed. Original topic was about HOW, on the basics level. Not about WHAT. I already know what 'what' is and I'd like to know why you imagined I didn't. Take anything I said in its context and by its case meaning and disprove it.

I'm not offended, I'm kind of sad because it's the truth. Nobody seems to give a damn until it's too late... forgive the expression. I see nothing wrong in setting example scenarios and try to get some facts to fundamental questions based on the answers given, even if (most likely) indirectly... and I definitely think there are a lot of big basic questions unanswered, things I'd like to believe devs already have figured out on a basic level. I'm just curious, and skeptic.
 

Pandagnome

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#11
If i didn't see the work done in firefall i'd be questioning things too, i have seen a lot of games die but there needs to be people that support and get behind the team. Its why myself and many others have backed the team to have this game we wanted.

This time round its a different situation compared to before and lessons learned. I do have that added reassurance there is more control and room for improvements including opportunities to relay feedback as the game develops.

We wont be able to see everything behind the scenes however i understand what your saying and feel that the team do read our concerns and views but they cannot reply or tell us everything that is going on until certain things are done i'd imagine.


Nobody seems to give a damn until it's too late
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and i think a lot of us do care but we also have trust in the team.

Its good you voiced your concern it shows you care lets look forward to the good development of Em8er!
 

Terib.Shadow

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#12
So uh, i've read a bit of some of the stuff that's been said here, somewhat, my brain wasn't really agreeing to commit since it was 3am.

I'm now really unconvinced that you read the vision book considering some things you said, and here you go : the vision book for EM-8ER, coming straight from the forums and straight from Grummz. (it's the free version of the book, the other is owned by backers of the previous milestones, and looks fancier, that's the only difference.)

https://forums.em8er.com/forums/vision-book-project-proofing.28/

I'd heavily recommend starting with "Section - Gameplay Goals" considering it's a summary which leads to the other sections, in a way, and also what you'd seem more interested in to begin with.
It's a lot of reading, but it very much seems like it's the only way to actually answer your questions correctly and precisely, if the vision book doesn't help, i can't do anything for you.

Also, just wanted to comment on your answer to my response to the thread, if you think it's blind enthusiasm, that's probably because you probably don't know about Firefall, Grummz or my knowledge of Firefall and Grummz, so it's very much understandable but please, don't call people blind enthusiasts when you don't know them, that's called taking a guess. Most of us here have good reasons to believe this project isn't just a dream that'll never come true.

And as SomeUnregPunk said, no one's attacking anyone, there's no reason to either way. Friendly conversations here, nothing else.
 

Torgue_Joey

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Jul 27, 2016
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#13
I'M DOING MY BEST TO KEEP GRUMMZ TO BE TRUE TO THE VISIONS.

THE "HOW" IS AN CONSTANT QUESTION WE ALL MAKE, EVEN THE GREAT LORD GRUMMZIFER MAKE THOSE QUESTION.

AND WE ALSO HELP HIM FIND THE ANSWER TO THE "HOW".

MANY GOOD IDEAS, BUT ARE THEY EASY TO IMPLEMENT? ARE THEY DOABLE WITH OUR CURRENT TECHNOLOGY.
IS IT SOMETHING THAT CAN BE ADDED LATER? IF NOT, THEN HOW TO ADD IT NOW WITHOUT IT BEING BROKEN AND SH*T?
 
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Pandagnome

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#14
I'M DOING MY BEST TO KEEP GRUMMZ TO BE TRUE TO THE VISIONS.

THE "HOW" IS AN CONSTANT QUESTION WE ALL MAKE, EVEN THE GREAT LORD GRUMMZIFER MAKE THOSE QUESTION.

AND WE ALSO HELP HIM FIND THE ANSWER TO THE "HOW".

MANY GOOD IDEAS, BUT ARE THEY EASY TO IMPLEMENT? ARE THEY DOABLE WITH OUR CURRENT TECHNOLOGY.
IS IT SOMETHING THAT CAN BE ADDED LATER? IF NOT, THEN HOW TO ADD IT NOW WITHOUT IT BEING BROKEN AND SH*T?
or else there will be

:eek:
 
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Mahdi

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#15
"
Also, just wanted to comment on your answer to my response to the thread, if you think it's blind enthusiasm, that's probably because you probably don't know about Firefall, Grummz or my knowledge of Firefall and Grummz, so it's very much understandable but please, don't call people blind enthusiasts when you don't know them, that's called taking a guess. Most of us here have good reasons to believe this project isn't just a dream that'll never come true."

This should put to rest the amount of growing negativity here. Well spoken.

Being skeptic is fine and wanting to know the how is always good in showing sincere interest. Your mind is on a more acute level with your perceptions and I credit you with that, Destination. I may ask that you understand and appreciate other's approach to the same topic by taking a different path. Simple concept of tolerances from all sides. Debates are greatly accepted here.

As Shadow said, valuable resources are open to all and make for detailed information on direction for this project. Unless you can read code and want to see that as they develope, being this early in the games creation we all need something playable to honestly continue these kinds of thoughts. When it's earliest stages get tested, then the core will truly look to take shape.
 
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#16
I'm now really unconvinced that you read the vision book considering some things you said
Had to go through the whole thing again. This is what can be extracted from the book relevant to the topic (so you see I'm not a liar):
They changed 'progression' for 'diversification' on the personal level. They ditched the 'long grind for the (personal) prize' and sticked to 'a very dynamic environment', global effort requirements and promises of regular additions to keep players interested.
There's no 'end game' and no 'early and middle ground' in a traditional sense, instead, the difficulty comes from 'how far are you gonna push' and other factors outside of players direct control (how hard is the enemy being kicked). The thing that will keep players around from the PERSONAL 'grind' perspective is that you're going to unlock (and then build or buy) a lot of stuff, try it, see what you like and then put together your own 'spec' (or simply watch a guide and decide 1st, to save unneeded effort). Also, the need to maintain players dominance for zones.

Still, the OT stands, esp. this part:

- a) Redundancy and lack of real impact. If all content is doable with 'stock' equipment (pure horizontal prog.) then there's no reason whatsoever to upgrade and to having long term 'material' goals other than 'I want to try that rainbow shooting gun because it looks awesome'. It's a big hit to player motivation and to the game's retaining power.
'But you're getting it wrong, you don't 'grind your stuff, you 'grind for the world effort'. What's MY prize? Let others build that base, someone will, eventually. I get nothing from doing it anyway, because I already have the blue laser and don't care for the red one. Yeah, combat is great but after my millionth enemy downed, I could use some goal for MYSELF... I hate when games go stagnant (FireFall).

I don't want to sound selfish (I know I did) but let's be real here, personal progression is a pillar and serves a function for which 'personal diversification' and 'global effort' alone can not deliver (it's simply not enough). It's the strongest factor for any 'collect stuff' game by a wide margin. Take it away and the pressure on the other pillars will be far, far greater. In other words, combat, atmosphere, activities (and diversity) and opponents' dynamism better be nothing less than BRILLIANT. It can work, I'm not saying they can't. I'm saying it's a big and unnecessary reaction for a known problem that had to be tackled, even if the goal is noble (don't screw up like many other games). A reckless reaction.

I'm sorry you guys perceive some negativity from me but I'm glad this forum is so clean even the slightest apparent hint of it gets noted. I just think most of you (all except Joey) didn't read the side of my arguments and examples as they were intended but instead interpreted them in a more direct and obvious way which happened to be contradictory with this games' already established features. That sabotaged the topic (I know it wasn't the plan).

TL;DR - I'm worried their plan isn't gonna work to its full potential. I don't want another 'play for a bit and move on' game. The blind enthusiast ended up being me. Best of luck to this dev team. I hope one day they show me I was wrong.
 

Maven

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#18
I'm just going to address your original post here.

1. Vertical/Horizontal Progression.
Horizontal progression does not mean a simple flat gradient where the stock weapon is equivalent to 'end-game' weapon. It refers to a flatter curve. Thus, there is always an element of verticality. However, unlike most other multiplayer online experiences on the market, the curve is not a steep linear growth from point A, to point B X times the values at point A.
The whole premise of the game is built upon unlocking the planet. Each unlock provides access to new 'tech/weapon tiers' that changes the way the game is played. Now, this includes growth in weapon/gear strength as well as access to new 'modules' (referencing Firefall).

a. The intent, I believe, is never to have the game be playable with pure stock equipment. There was a period during Firefall's development, the time of the durability saga, when players would run stock equipment to prevent loss of their favorite gear. Let's be honest, it's tedious, drawn out and entirely a waste of a player's time. The growth/change in gear tech/tier is not meant to be a pure aesthetics feature. It is supposed to change the way you play. Stronger enemies need not simply be bullet sponges with increasing health pools and greater damage output. The challenge lies in designing the enemy in such a way that it makes it so that the player has to change their approach to tackling the AI. Gear is meant to supplement your skill.

b. Unless the world is fully unlocked, not all gear tiers will be available at all times. The game is meant to be a literal 'tug-of-war' between the enemy AI and the players. Zones will be lost to invading enemies, which will result in loss of access to gear tier, tech, resources and such. This makes the next battle all the more tougher. Thus, following from the above point, having zones unlocked is essential to tackling stronger enemies 'efficiently'. This is the core of the 'material' progression for the game.


2. Scaling:
The major issue here is that people tend to look at most multiplayer online experiences as a flat-grid difficulty curve. On a flat-grid, difficulty increases as the player moves away from the so-called starter region. As he moves outwards, challenges are greater, gear acquired is stronger and rewards are higher. Hence this lends to a situation where the player has no need to return to a starter zone, since none of the items listed above are relevant to him.

Em-8er has a different approach. Scaling is not only on a flat-grid, it's on a top-down or vertical grid as well. Let's set aside the concept of invasions since it definitely will have a flat-grid growth curve. Thumping has an element of vertical difficulty growth. The longer you thump for minerals/materials the stronger the enemy spawns. The challenge in thumping is to prolong the process long enough to access the higher quality materials while keeping your thumper safe from enemy spawns of ever increasing difficulty. Moreover, thumping is not zone locked. All material types remain relevant to crafting no matter how much of the world is unlocked. Thus thumping is a way of creating content at any zone, at any given time. This also means that all gear, no matter how higher tier/stronger it may be, remains relevant in all zones.

The thumping experience in Firefall was ruined post-launch. There have been many instances of veterans dropping S3 thumpers in and around Copa to attract larger and tougher spawns even in starter zones, and several of the newer players have admitted that these have been some of the most enjoyable encounters in the game.

Do remember that the enemy is meant to push inwards from the outer zones and reclaim zones unlocked by players. During times of low player activity, this reclamation may result in players being pushed all the way inwards to the 'starter zones'. This means the accessible playable area is dynamic and ever-fluid. Veterans and newer players alike will have the chance of experiencing all tiers of enemy strength on multiple occasions.

Adding to the above, the Commander AI is going to be built to detect and adjust enemy attacks based on player activity. Attacks on several zones at the same time can easily thin out/draw out the playerbase. This means that loss of zones is a given. The challenge here would be to design it such that the entire process does not come off as tedious/a chore, instead remaining fun for the players.


3. Reward
Firefall was not so much about the gear tiers as it was about sheer fun in taking on a enemy that was constantly pushing aggressively all over the map. To most players, or atleast to me, that stuck with Firefall, that honestly was the reward. There was no race to the finish line, no worry about being irrelevant. if I had the skill and even moderate tier gear, I could go out to the outer zones and take on the enemy spawns or participate in invasions or thumping. Of course it may not be very efficient, but the challenge in itself was what drove players. And this exact experience was what The9 took away from Firefall when they tried to turn it into yet another mainstream MMO.

And this experience, the freedom, was what kept me playing Firefall far longer than any MMO prior. I could walk away from the game for a while to focus on something else, come back and I'd still be having fun. There was no rush to 'catch up'. No fear that my gear becomes obsolete if I stay away for a while. No pressure to be active at all times. That to me a is a true social experience. Hop in, blow up some chosen, farm some mats, chill and relax.

There's another element to the whole Firefall experience that was essentially ruined post-launch. The lore. It had an interesting premise and there was more to be unlocked as the game progressed in development. Until The9 ripped it all apart. It wasn't your run of the mill 'The chosen one' saga. That in itself was refreshing. Again, until we all became Ares-35, the only soldier who could defuse that bomb on that tower over yonder.

There has always been a feeling that Firefall appealed to a niche market, that it would never have widespread popularity since it did not have the typical MMO experience. Truth is, most players who enjoyed pre-launch Firefall were those that were tired of the common MMO tropes. And there were quite a few of us.

The one biggest flaw with Firefall was that there was no element of consequence. An invasion of Thump Dump followed by a loss of the area never really had an impact on the world or on the player experience. Which is funny, since TD was the central zone for launch and retrieval of thumpers. This I'd believe is being addressed, atleast partially, in Em-8er, with the loss of world tiers. I'd definitely want more in terms of consequence for loss, but this is a start.

TL;DR:

There is no true Horizontal Progression, there will be an element of verticality. The curve however is flatter and is meant to be a supplement to your skill.

The game has an element of creating instances of challenge at any point in the open world. It is not restricted by zone or region. Difficulty will scale upwards regardless of the region.

The game is meant to be the spiritual successor to Firefall. And the very people who are putting their faith in Kern and the game are those that loved what Firefall tried to differently. Personal reward in terms of gear may not really be all that relevant. To me, this is about the experience and the fun. I'd like to believe it would be the same for atleast a few of us here supporting the game.
 
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Pandagnome

Kaiju Slayer
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Jul 27, 2016
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#19
I just think most of you (all except Joey) didn't read the side of my arguments and examples as they were intended but instead interpreted them in a more direct and obvious way which happened to be contradictory with this games' already established features. That sabotaged the topic (I know it wasn't the plan).
you have some valid points but how can you tell if we read it a certain way?


... is the time to try see what's on the devs' drawing board and project it further. Once they start coding lots of stuff, it will be too late to deal with shortcomings on a foundation level.
I like how passionate you are about it, i am sure when they are ready they will reveal their progress but at the end
the final decision is for the dev team.

I'm worried their plan isn't gonna work to its full potential. I don't want another 'play for a bit and move on' game. The blind enthusiast ended up being me. Best of luck to this dev team. I hope one day they show me I was wrong.
I am worried there is a lot of doubts, can understand if the game was already further in development for the worry.
Truly we want this game to succeed too as mentioned everyone's view is valuable even if it may seem more direct to one another.

Myself personally would add anything that comes to my mind in the forum even if the ideas seemed unlikely, because with all our heads put together its a mega brain to develop a truly fun game to enjoy for a very long time!!!!

Any real clairvoyant in the house please tell us your prediction & why?
 
Likes: Mahdi
Dec 27, 2016
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#20
You know, you're right. I'll stop overheating myself thinking everything locked on previous experiences and just see what happens. I'll simply tag along free from imaginary concerns until the Day comes, much less stressing this way. I'll let Kern surprise me and stop pretending this game must give me what OTHER great games gave me in the PAST and take it as its own thing.

Must accept that, unlike you, this isn't about recreating fond memories to me... that raid boss I was the only player in my server able to legit solo it on my class, those many times I pulled a hopeless team to victory, those noobs I aggro-aimed the boss AoE for the hilarious megakills, that shinny 1/10K I got by myself while the weak just paid for it and that PvP arena in which I kept biting the dust until I could trade punches with the best all belong elsewhere. Maybe, had I played FF when it was relevant, I wouldn't have denied there can more than all that. Let rest in peace what others did right and screw to hell what others did wrong. This guys aren't the others. This game won't that other game.

It's the past losses, and the void that got me. Games today are simply terrible... mediocre and forgettable at best. Mainstream corporate drones swimming in cash is a grave injustice.
Must be patient.
Ok I won't bore you anymore with my BS. Thanks for listening, had to vent it out.
 
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