Got 2 guns? Shoot at 2 targets, then!

[Aphaz]

The only two options i could think of that could create a sense of duel wielding at two targets is either to have a lock on feature like it was already suggested or to have a different kind of lock where it locks the position of your gun in relation to your body while you aim with the other gun.
This of course would block the amount of movement you could do with your camera since you shouldn't be able to turn more than 180 degrees from the way the locked gun is pointing.
Now how i imagine this could be pulled off is have the game react differently to how the two mouse buttons are pressed.
When neither one of the buttons is pressed, you are in your idle stance, you can rotate your camera anywhere you want and no bullets are being fired.
When you press both of the buttons at the same time you shoot both of your guns at the same time and follow the camera like in any other game with dual wield.
Similar thing happens when you press only one of the buttons where instead of both guns firing, only one fires.
Now here comes the tricky part: if while you are pressing one of the buttons(1), you press the other(2) one as well, the already firing gun(1) locks in place and the camera switches to the direction the now firing gun(2) is facing and you can aim with that gun(2).
While this is taking place, you can only rotate to a limited degree(just point in one direction with your left hand and while keeping your hand in that direction see how much you can rotate and point with your other hand).
To switch between hands while in this dual mode, just release the button of the gun(1) you wanna aim with and press it again(1). That way the previous gun(2) will be the locked one and the newly pressed one(1) will be the unlocked one.
Really confusing, i know.
But it works without the need for an ability and with enough practice can be used to hit multiple moving targets at the same time.

me likes, though it would get Some getting used to...that's for shure

 

[Ronyn]

Interesting discussion going on in here.
Just some food for thought to add in....
If auto aiming a second weapon is against skill based combat then would automatic turrets (like old engineer turrets) be anti skill as well?

 

[MattHunX]

The only two options i could think of that could create a sense of duel wielding at two targets is either to have a lock on feature like it was already suggested or to have a different kind of lock where it locks the position of your gun in relation to your body while you aim with the other gun.
This of course would block the amount of movement you could do with your camera since you shouldn't be able to turn more than 180 degrees from the way the locked gun is pointing.
Now how i imagine this could be pulled off is have the game react differently to how the two mouse buttons are pressed.
When neither one of the buttons is pressed, you are in your idle stance, you can rotate your camera anywhere you want and no bullets are being fired.
When you press both of the buttons at the same time you shoot both of your guns at the same time and follow the camera like in any other game with dual wield.
Similar thing happens when you press only one of the buttons where instead of both guns firing, only one fires.
Now here comes the tricky part: if while you are pressing one of the buttons(1), you press the other(2) one as well, the already firing gun(1) locks in place and the camera switches to the direction the now firing gun(2) is facing and you can aim with that gun(2).
While this is taking place, you can only rotate to a limited degree(just point in one direction with your left hand and while keeping your hand in that direction see how much you can rotate and point with your other hand).
To switch between hands while in this dual mode, just release the button of the gun(1) you wanna aim with and press it again(1). That way the previous gun(2) will be the locked one and the newly pressed one(1) will be the unlocked one.
Really confusing, i know.
But it works without the need for an ability and with enough practice can be used to hit multiple moving targets at the same time.

Hoe about a button on the keyboard that can toggle either the left-hand weapon or the right-hand weapon to lock-on, so we can still aim and shoot (with left-mouse) and fine-aim (right-mouse), as usual. Or if one has 5 buttons on their mouse, an extra one on each side, than they could toggle the lock on the corresponding weapon by pressing [Mouse 3] [Mouse 4] or [Mouse 5] or whichever is on the desired side.

 

[SomeUnregPunk]

The only two options i could think of that could create a sense of duel wielding at two targets is either to have a lock on feature like it was already suggested or to have a different kind of lock where it locks the position of your gun in relation to your body while you aim with the other gun.
This of course would block the amount of movement you could do with your camera since you shouldn't be able to turn more than 180 degrees from the way the locked gun is pointing.
Now how i imagine this could be pulled off is have the game react differently to how the two mouse buttons are pressed.
When neither one of the buttons is pressed, you are in your idle stance, you can rotate your camera anywhere you want and no bullets are being fired.
When you press both of the buttons at the same time you shoot both of your guns at the same time and follow the camera like in any other game with dual wield.
Similar thing happens when you press only one of the buttons where instead of both guns firing, only one fires.
Now here comes the tricky part: if while you are pressing one of the buttons(1), you press the other(2) one as well, the already firing gun(1) locks in place and the camera switches to the direction the now firing gun(2) is facing and you can aim with that gun(2).
While this is taking place, you can only rotate to a limited degree(just point in one direction with your left hand and while keeping your hand in that direction see how much you can rotate and point with your other hand).
To switch between hands while in this dual mode, just release the button of the gun(1) you wanna aim with and press it again(1). That way the previous gun(2) will be the locked one and the newly pressed one(1) will be the unlocked one.
Really confusing, i know.
But it works without the need for an ability and with enough practice can be used to hit multiple moving targets at the same time.

too complicated especially since we are doing this on the PC, we got access to lots of keys and stuff...

Keys 1-4 to switch between weapons and abilites.
Key E to tag targets for selected weapon/ability
Left mouse key for firing selected weapon/ability.
Key F to fire non-selected weapon that has locked to a tagged target.

As long as it's made so that weapons can't cross each's other path so that it breaks the mech/pilots' arms or fire behind the mech while facing forward, I think it would be fine.

and of course depending on the weapon's capability you could still blindly fire them.

I have used a tractor that does something similar.
It has 3 modes. Crab mode, fwd wheels control, rear wheels control. In crab mode the two front wheels rotate opposite of the back wheels.
So we would swap between modes to get the back wheels set in a different position of the front wheels and then swap to crab mode to do really tight maneuvers.

 

[MattHunX]

Interesting discussion going on in here.
Just some food for thought to add in....
If auto aiming a second weapon is against skill based combat then would automatic turrets (like old engineer turrets) be anti skill as well?

The difference would be that automated weapons deployed by the player or stationary base-defenses wouldn't be able to lead a target as human players would, essentially predicting the target's path. At least, I think that could be a balancing factor. So locking on with a weapon, by either toggling it or activating it as an ability, then firing away with it, while manually-aiming the other, wouldn't really be used to make things easier for the player, it would be just a neat mechanic or skill that could allow us to, at least, get something that is close to how dual-wielding could/would actually work. I mean, surely if one has two guns, they're not gonna just shoot at a single target. I'm not expecting Gun-Kata. I just figure locking one weapon to a target, while allowing manual-aim with the other is doable and it wouldn't necessarily be anti-skill.

 

[MR.Classy]

Interesting discussion going on in here.
Just some food for thought to add in....
If auto aiming a second weapon is against skill based combat then would automatic turrets (like old engineer turrets) be anti skill as well?

Well thats kinda like comparing an auto-solve button on a rubix cube with a robot that solves a rubix cube.
One works like an automated arm while the other works like a third arm.
So no, its not anti skill.

 

[MR.Classy]

Hoe about a button on the keyboard that can toggle either the left-hand weapon or the right-hand weapon to lock-on, so we can still aim and shoot (with left-mouse) and fine-aim (right-mouse), as usual. Or if one has 5 buttons on their mouse, an extra one on each side, than they could toggle the lock on the corresponding weapon by pressing [Mouse 3] [Mouse 4] or [Mouse 5] or whichever is on the desired side.

Yea, adding more keys could work, however adding too many would just do more harm than good.
Just imagine having to press 3 different keys to change from one gun to the other instead of just re-klicking your mouse button.
Also i dont think we will be able to fine-aim with dual wielding since to fine aim you need stability and you cant rly be stable when holding two guns. (could be wrong tho, never dual wielded guns in real life before)

too complicated especially since we are doing this on the PC, we got access to lots of keys and stuff...

Keys 1-4 to switch between weapons and abilites.
Key E to tag targets for selected weapon/ability
Left mouse key for firing selected weapon/ability.
Key F to fire non-selected weapon that has locked to a tagged target.

As long as it's made so that weapons can't cross each's other path so that it breaks the mech/pilots' arms or fire behind the mech while facing forward, I think it would be fine.

and of course depending on the weapon's capability you could still blindly fire them.

I have used a tractor that does something similar.
It has 3 modes. Crab mode, fwd wheels control, rear wheels control. In crab mode the two front wheels rotate opposite of the back wheels.
So we would swap between modes to get the back wheels set in a different position of the front wheels and then swap to crab mode to do really tight maneuvers.

Yes we do have a lot of keys and stuff but having more buttons to press doesnt make it better, it just makes it more complicated.
Having to press 3+ buttons in an action game just to shoot only overcumbers the player.
However, ill admit, your idea would work too for the problem the OP posted.

 

[EvilKitten]

Interesting discussion going on in here.
Just some food for thought to add in....
If auto aiming a second weapon is against skill based combat then would automatic turrets (like old engineer turrets) be anti skill as well?

Absolutely yes, I've already posted my response on these lines here: https://forums.em8er.com/threads/turrets-idea-thread.1177/#post-35616

 

[Ronyn]

Well thats kinda like comparing an auto-solve button on a rubix cube with a robot that solves a rubix cube.
One works like an automated arm while the other works like a third arm.
So no, its not anti skill.

I'm sorry I didnt understand your analogy.
You're saying that one is anti skill and one is not? Or that neither is?

 

[MR.Classy]

I'm sorry I didnt understand your analogy.
You're saying that one is anti skill and one is not? Or that neither is?

Yea, i suck at analogies.
To put it simply, auto aim guns are in general low or no skill.
IF for example its aim assist where you point the weapon and it hits all targets in the general area of your crosshair then its a low skill since it lowers the skill needed to hit a target.
Like instead of aiming at the doorbell you aim at the door.
On the other hand if its full on auto aim then that can be classified as no skill. (anti skill)
Why?
You are giving the controler to the machine and having it do your job for you.
But isnt that just like auto aim turrets?
No, not really for a simple reason: its an object we dont have control over and are not supposed to that does its job no matter what we do.
Now yes, its job is to attack any enemy that comes near it to a certain range but mines do that too (albeit they do that in a smaller range) and i dont recall anyone commenting that mines are anti skill.
So to summ it up, auto aim turrets are not anti skill and auto aim weapons are.

 

[Ronyn]

Yea, i suck at analogies.
To put it simply, auto aim guns are in general low or no skill.
IF for example its aim assist where you point the weapon and it hits all targets in the general area of your crosshair then its a low skill since it lowers the skill needed to hit a target.
Like instead of aiming at the doorbell you aim at the door.
On the other hand if its full on auto aim then that can be classified as no skill. (anti skill)
Why?
You are giving the controler to the machine and having it do your job for you.
But isnt that just like auto aim turrets?
No, not really for a simple reason: its an object we dont have control over and are not supposed to that does its job no matter what we do.
Now yes, its job is to attack any enemy that comes near it to a certain range but mines do that too (albeit they do that in a smaller range) and i dont recall anyone commenting that mines are anti skill.
So to summ it up, auto aim turrets are not anti skill and auto aim weapons are.

To make sure I fully understand your stance. You are saying that-
Aim assist lowers skill, and full auto aim is no skill. But an auto turret being an object separate from the body does not fall under those same two things because we are not supposed to control it.
Following that through it means->
an auto aim weapon, while still requiring the user to be in the line of fire of an enemy, is anti-skill.
an auto attacking turret, despite being able to be placed in a spot to attack while the user is out of the line of fire, is not anti-skill.

Do I understand your stance correctly?
(I'm honestly just here to collect data to pass it on....)

 

[Pandagnome]

Gun-Kata

Make gun kata real just like in the film equilibrium its so beautiful a martial art mech doing a gun kata in sequence with chums

 

[MR.Classy]

To make sure I fully understand your stance. You are saying that-
Aim assist lowers skill, and full auto aim is no skill. But an auto turret being an object separate from the body does not fall under those same two things because we are not supposed to control it.
Following that through it means->
an auto aim weapon, while still requiring the user to be in the line of fire of an enemy, is anti-skill.
an auto attacking turret, despite being able to be placed in a spot to attack while the user is out of the line of fire, is not anti-skill.

Do I understand your stance correctly?
(I'm honestly just here to collect data to pass it on....)

Yep, pretty much.
Also, the fact that it can be used even when the user is not directly in danger doesnt mean that its anti skill.
For example, a grenade requires skill to hit the target and yet u can use it while the user is out of the line of fire.

 

[Ronyn]

Yep, pretty much.

I see.

Also, the fact that it can be used even when the user is not directly in danger doesn't mean that its anti skill.
For example, a grenade requires skill to hit the target and yet u can use it while the user is out of the line of fire.

Is that example meant to suggest that an auto turret attacking targets when the user is out of the line fire requires a similar type of skill to throwing a grenade in such a way that it will hit someone out of the line of fire? Or is the skill requirement immaterial for a turret, simply because it is a turret?

Ah wait a minute, is this essentially that when you drop a turret, you can still fly around and aim your gun. but auto aim takes away that ability to aim your gun? no wait, if only the secondary weapon is auto targeted then youre still aiming your other gun. Hmmm.

Alrighty, I'll just log this and pass it along when it comes up.

 

[Mahdi]

I see turrets as safe along a different line. Firefall turrets were nasty when you had 5+ but less than that was limiting. Auto target and fire at that point with balanced damage ratios means the guaranteed hits aren't anti skill. A player's frame is the primary damage of the game thus any form of auto aim/aim assist will have a very negative impact on the game. AI controlled, minimal damage turrets would be on for supportive roles. Auto aim/aim assist from a player's frame means they can put more focus and attention on mobility therefore removing skill needed for some combat performances by them.

I think I worded it right.

 

[Pandagnome]

I see turrets as safe along a different line. Firefall turrets were nasty when you had 5+ but less than that was limiting. Auto target and fire at that point with balanced damage ratios means the guaranteed hits aren't anti skill. A player's frame is the primary damage of the game thus any form of auto aim/aim assist will have a very negative impact on the game. AI controlled, minimal damage turrets would be on for supportive roles. Auto aim/aim assist from a player's frame means they can put more focus and attention on mobility therefore removing skill needed for some combat performances by them.

I think I worded it right.

I really like the ultimate turret where you could get in and control the firing hope they have this maybe even a 2 person turret one controls the moment and the firing from the front and the second person controls fire but can also call out targets especially from behind and below so its like a 2 turret tower below is the main turret controller and the team member is above what if they could be controlled independently so the top turret can hover a small distance away from the primary turret but if they split up too far their power is greatly reduced and effective range

i dont know just thoughts

 

[Mahdi]

Would be fun for sure, panda. I just think in Em-8ER, turrets of that caliber will be for our human characters to get inside of for base defense scenarios. Manning the wall. I don't see our omniframes getting in turrets for a game based on so much moving combat.

(Yes I am aware of my and many people's ideas for immobilized heavy frame modes)

 

[EvilKitten]

Auto target and fire at that point with balanced damage ratios means the guaranteed hits aren't anti skill.

If skill is not involved then it reduces skill requirements for the encounter, if skill is involved then it maintains or raises skill requirements. This statement should be inherently valid regardless of the amount of damage applied.

so... by that logic you are, in essense, declaring the turret to require skill, can you elaborate on what skill that might be?

A player's frame is the primary damage... AI controlled, minimal damage turrets would be on for supportive roles.

If your main damage is from your main weapon then wouldn't it stand to reason a player would be better off taking a damage boost to their main weapon over a "minimal damage" turret? IF the lower damage you would get from the turret is better than the higher damage you could get from the gun boost what does that tell you?

 

[Destination]

I have a less ambitious idea.
Aim your right hand (main) pistol normally. The left hand pistol will shoot at a different target but it must be within a certain degrees arc of fire relative to the main target. This second shot is auto-aimed but it will always miss if you don't hit the main target (balance reason).
If no secondary target is within the arc of fire then both pistols shoot the same target.
It's a bit restrictive and cuts off some options. But it's simple and still has some unique flavor.

 

[DinsdaleP13]

I have a more ambitious idea. You aim your right hand with your right mouse, and you aim your left hand with your left mouse. That's completely skill based.