PvP, how it could work?

[SomeUnregPunk]

Well, one thing that *might* work is a take on the Battle Royale mode. In Firefall we had a test PvP map called "collapsing melding pocket" which was a shrinking area of melding and a last man standing type thing. Given how popular battle royale is, I'm sort of kicking myself for not pushing to release it.

The problem with PvP in Em-8ER is that players abilities and weapons can be anything, and customized for PvE which may not be fun when used against another player.

But we can have a mode where its a BR type map, and a shrinking terraforming bubble. You start with your frame choice (light/med/heavy), and there are free resources scattered on the map (no thumping req).

You run around collecting these resources and then insta-crafting them into weapons and abilities, a fixed set or recipes that we deem "balanced" for PvP. That way you start to equip weapons and abilities as you play.

You play individually, or in teams or with your armies.

This *might* work, and it's a take on an original, unreleased Firefall PvP map mode.

That would be cool. Crafting that you see in PvE in PvP would be interesting. Normal PvP gets boring after awhile. Probably the reason I stopped playing TF2 some years ago. Sure you can craft a weapon or hat outside of the game with all those lootboxes but.. meh.

The only problem is that games like Battleborn tried that with not good results. Sure some people like upgrading their individual hero but not a lot of people played that game. (Though i ain't sure if it was the gameplay or just because gearbox acquired enough bad rep prior to release of battleborn)

Crafting in the BR mode for Fortnite is a bit interesting. Sure is popular though.

snip

honestly the only reason I said that is because PvP by itself gets boring after while. It's like like most major sports. It's just one team scores over the other over and over again. Nothing new occurs that changes gameplay.

I like the crafting idea in fornite because there is a possibility of new tactics being forced.

It's like TitanFall 2 for me. Practically every weapon and item can be used to decimate but it requires people to do more than camp & shoot.

 

[Wyntyr]

Good Idea

I think this is the best idea for PvP in Em-8ER that I've read yet. However it will only hold IF PvP is introduced AND IF Battle Royale is the PvP choice of the day. By the time Em-8ER gets to the point of adding a PvP mode of some sort, Battle Royale may be last year's news and some other genre of PvP is king.

 

[Mahdi]

Not trying to be a downer on PvP. I have enjoyed it in some games, but I don't have any desire to play it in the great world of Em-8ER. To keep it to direct history, PvP and pve balancing in firefall was atrocious.

Now other than straight PvP games (planetside 2 for example) I have hated PvP and the toxicity of those players by percentage. Not labeling everyone.

Old school Wow was spot on with the history. Also the only exemption from my hate list. Crossroads battles were fun. But Wrath did break things. I was a rest shaman, another guildmate was a rest druid, the third was an arms warrior. We had the 2nd best arena gear available at the time. Eye of the storm, we just took a tower (for the horde!) And 9 out of the 10 allies spawned at another. Arms warrior runs into them all. Only two were able to escape. (Foolish allies) that is pretty broke.

 

[Rocket]

One of the main problems with Em8er’s classless take on roles, weapons and abilities is that you can build any frame that is within the bounds of the game rules and mechanics yet stupidly overpowered when put into actual practice. This is known as min-maxing.

That's a pretty big claim to make, given you have no playable mockup to base your assertions on (and I expect the mockup to include a single frame size). You're making assumptions that every weapon and every module and every skill will be available to every frame size. Refer to the initial design document for details. That's a link btw. Click it. Read. The initial design document pretty much refutes that idea.

Well, that is what the Holmgangs were. Which is one of the reasons I don't get the push back against PvP. What you and @EvilKitten have said is what was the lore reason of PvP in Firefall. I don't get why so many people are against it in a spiritual successor. Maybe they just hate competition?

*Edit: It's like people forgot that Firefall was supposed to be an e-sport competitive game. What the fuck?

Firefall was supposed to be an E-Sports competitive game? It was supposed to be a lot of things. Number one being, thump for mats, to craft researched gear, to fight a war against the chosen. That was the sales pitch when I signed up as a founder. Please provide a citation for this claim of yours.

It's well known that the first playable instance in Firefall was a small section of New Eden for PVP. But that was by necessity. It's also known that R5 flew in 20 of the best Firefall PVP players, and changed the game forever based on their input, in an effort to become a force in E-Sports. Something PVE suffered massively for, despite PVE dedication representing most of the player base. If I'm not mistaken, the bastard son of this unholy union was a bus. Yeah. That bus.

Let's not make this "Overwatch with Omniframes and Kaiju". Let's not have an Em-8ER PVP bus.

But it really doesn't matter. The following image, one that you can verify in Discord, is all the justification we need for pushing back on any form of PVP beyond the ability to duel another player (which really should exist by default), until well after Em-8ER's release.





The date for that btw was after the first two Em-8ER fundraisers (first for the forum, second for the MEK-A playable demo and the Vision Book), but before the third fundraiser. Look, full respect dude, for being a substantial backer. Firstclaimer (third fundraiser) was $150. That would be $200 if you're an Australian given the exchange rates at the time. And that is 2x AAA games. But one thing at a time. The Em-8ER vision book realized first, and a separate fundraiser for a PVP mode second. Let's have PVP stand on it's own merits with a separate fundraiser, and not on the funds raised for a PVE focused commitment.

In Firefall we had a test PvP map called "collapsing melding pocket" which was a shrinking area of melding and a last man standing type thing. Given how popular battle royale is, I'm sort of kicking myself for not pushing to release it.

That would be the map that became the collapsing melding tornado pocket. Once the melding tornado was done, you had opportunity (assuming a big enough contribution) to enter a portal to it. It was a circular arena style pocket with resources littered everywhere. You ran around and picked them up as the melding pocket collapsed and more and more chosen spawned in. The exit point was up above with a couple of paths to reach it. You either stayed longer to grab more, or left early to lock in your loot. Risk vs reward.

It was pretty well received by the player base, and existed as an excellent example of an active rather than passive gameplay reward system.

EDIT: @Grummz I know you've said "no quests, no missions" but it would be awesome to have some resemblance of Firefall's melding tornado's spawn, if a certain number of players were within a given radius with no invasions ongoing.

 

[Grummz]

We're focused on PvE. No plans for PvP. BR is one mode that would make sense for Em8ER and would not compromise PvE design, as we can simply exclude crafting abilities and weapons not fun for PvP. But don't hold your breath. We want to create a great PvE experience.

Doing a separate fundraiser for PvP makes sense too, if and when that time should come. But don't expect it.

 

[Gordro]

I know its been said a lot over the years, but a PvP game needs to be designed with PvP in mind right at the start. Bolt on PvP is never balanced nor fun.

 

[FurryAngel]

I like the way DS3 did it.

 

[DinsdaleP13]

Firefall was supposed to be an E-Sports competitive game? It was supposed to be a lot of things. Number one being, thump for mats, to craft researched gear, to fight a war against the chosen. That was the sales pitch when I signed up as a founder. Please provide a citation for this claim of yours.

http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/firefall-and-esports-a-q-a-with-red-5-s-morgan-romine
https://www.pcgamesn.com/firefall-esports-be-supported-1-million-prize-money-developer-red-5-2013
https://www.engadget.com/2012/08/10/firefalls-new-esports-toolkit-allows-better-viewing-of-matches/

It's well known that the first playable instance in Firefall was a small section of New Eden for PVP. But that was by necessity. It's also known that R5 flew in 20 of the best Firefall PVP players, and changed the game forever based on their input, in an effort to become a force in E-Sports. Something PVE suffered massively for, despite PVE dedication representing most of the player base. If I'm not mistaken, the bastard son of this unholy union was a bus. Yeah. That bus.

The first playable instances were actually a couple of PvP maps. And that was it. Other than that it was sitting in checkerboard land. Only later did a small part of New Eden open up in between matches, before you were finally able to go to a very restricted Copacabana.

And the whole point of the bus was to drive it around the country, and get people into the game. I thought it was a great idea, but unfortunately it never came to pass.

Why don't you just skip straight to the carebear quips, if labeling people makes you feel better then go ahead.

EvilKitten carebear confirmed. Where should I ship your rainbow stickers?

 

[Wyntyr]

@Grummz I know you've said "no quests, no missions" but it would be awesome to have some resemblance of Firefall's melding tornado's spawn, if a certain number of players were within a given radius with no invasions ongoing.

+1

 

[Faeryl]

EDIT: @Grummz I know you've said "no quests, no missions" but it would be awesome to have some resemblance of Firefall's melding tornado's spawn, if a certain number of players were within a given radius with no invasions ongoing.

+1

I'd like to add my plus one to this cool idea. +1

8 FOR EM-8ER

 

[fumaider]

Hi again. Is it there any way to download the Firefall or any new aplication of Em8er??? Ive been playing games since my own Gauntlet on MSX ( copy paste ^^)...im frome EU and i guess i would be a potential tester

 

[Dreamin]

http://www.tentonhammer.com/articles/firefall-and-esports-a-q-a-with-red-5-s-morgan-romine
https://www.pcgamesn.com/firefall-esports-be-supported-1-million-prize-money-developer-red-5-2013
https://www.engadget.com/2012/08/10/firefalls-new-esports-toolkit-allows-better-viewing-of-matches/


The first playable instances were actually a couple of PvP maps. And that was it. Other than that it was sitting in checkerboard land. Only later did a small part of New Eden open up in between matches, before you were finally able to go to a very restricted Copacabana.

And the whole point of the bus was to drive it around the country, and get people into the game. I thought it was a great idea, but unfortunately it never came to pass.

@DinsdaleP13 , Pushing this hoopla about the e-sports is non-sense that just confuses those that were not actually playing the game during that time period. E-sports was never an actual part of FireFall. I can not speak for any releases before the June 2010 Special invite Open Access Weekend; I can definitively state that the above listed e-sports were not part of a release and unless you are specifically one of the few players invited to "THAT" event then the one way you know about it is reading about it. The attempts at e-sports were presented as events only and not continued after the events, ie. OmniCom.. These events featured some PVP type content that presumably there was not sufficient test server participation to test for open release viability (If the people playing the game don't like it, don't bring it back after event kind of thing).

Anyway, your passion to bring PVP here is awesome. If you use facts and reasoning you'll surely succeed, but posting stuff to dis-illusion the topic or confuse those less informed is un-cool.

EvilKitten carebear confirmed. Where should I ship your rainbow stickers?

*OMG Did this guy type that?* What a winner...cool huh?

 

[DinsdaleP13]

@DinsdaleP13 ,
What a winner...cool huh?

Thanks.

 

[Krhys]

You shoot the other guy with your gun - isn't that usually how PvP in shooters work???

 

[Wyntyr]

Hmmm...I thought you were to throw pies at each other.

 

[Pandagnome]

Hmmm...I thought you were to throw pies at each other.

Genius Wyntyr

We come out of flying saucers so there are 2 flying saucers
1 lands across the other side of the map and another the other side each time randomly.

You are limited by how many pies your mech can take however you can go back to the ufo pie maker to make more
if you get the bp for the pie maker module your pies are baked 15% faster making your pies hotter and more deadly.

If you were a recon you would have hot sneaky pie this is the most deadliest of them all :O

 

[Dreamin]

Guee suit mixed martial arts.... separate mode possibly or an in-game challenge player type fight.

Players get 1 point for each contact; possible actions/abilities, jab, uppercut, kick low, kick high (each should alternate arm/leg used each time activated ) ; stiff arm, hand up and hop for defense. Battle lasts until one players' points equal the other players' Guee suit hp value. Reward for loss/victory... bragging rights.

 

[NaleelDragneel]

Lets not do the pvp in em8er lets have a non toxic game instead!!!!!!!

 

[Wraithbane]

Some interesting ideas, but why does the game *need* PvP? Why can't we focus on PvE and let those who want PvP, go play one of the countless games that have PvP in them? PvP brings with it countless problems, as was demonstrated in the old Firefall.

Yes, many can be worked around with proper design, but again, why does the game *need* PvP?

At least for the first few years, the Dev team is going to be rather limited in number, which translates to a llimit on what they can focus their time/talents on. Why make things more complicated than they need to be?

 

[Krhys]

Some interesting ideas, but why does the game *need* PvP? Why can't we focus on PvE and let those who want PvP, go play one of the countless games that have PvP in them? PvP brings with it countless problems, as was demonstrated in the old Firefall.

Yes, many can be worked around with proper design, but again, why does the game *need* PvP?

At least for the first few years, the Dev team is going to be rather limited in number, which translates to a llimit on what they can focus their time/talents on. Why make things more complicated than they need to be?

I'm with you on this one, focus should be on getting the basics in place.

We need a game before we can have PvP in that game...